My last Haas arrived.

[Houdini]

I have worked with a lot of Haas machines during my short career, all being built between 2014 and 2018 to be specific. I have been called a Haas fan-boy before because I liked the machines I have worked on. They would hold tolerance and run without many issues. They are no Mazak or Okuma for sure, but they worked for what we needed them for. It seems that around late 2018 or sometime in 2019, the bean counters at Haas began to pinch production costs in an effort to stay competitive. Things like switching to galvanized steel way covers, painting enclosure steel with poor paint/coatings, not to mention all the bugs with the NGC control. If I remember correctly, Haas machines the table for the VF2 in a cell using EC1600s and finishes them with a facemill using CBN inserts.
The table on your VF2 is completely unacceptable for what a new VF2 costs. As others have said, I would refuse the machine or make Haas fix it in some way, either by replacing the table (which they likely wont do) or give you a financial kick back.

I appreciate all of the educational content Haas has put out over the years, and I appreciate their dedication to education by selling machines to colleges and schools at discounts. They are what I learned on like many others on this form. But, you can only get away with so much before your customer base begins to leave. I know many shops here in North Carolina that were once Haas only shops, and they have begun replacing those machines with anything but a Haas. I will be in the market for a medium sized VMC sometime in Q2 of 2023 and I will most likely be going with a DN Solutions DNM5700 or Mazak VC Ez20.

There is a post on here somewhere of someone who bought one of the Ez Mazak mills, I was looking at them skeptically, until I saw the post, you don't want one of those things, bad news.

 

[Orange Vise]

Or do I let the local HFO replace the table, and possibly/likely have a far less tolerance of alignment table.

Our ST20Y turret replacement took over a week, but in fairness it was a complicated swap because of the live tooling. The whole right angle drive and motor had to come out and the HFO voluntarily replaced everything out of caution. I OK'd it because my hands were full anyway, having taken simultaneous delivery of another ST20Y and two UMC500s. I probably could've pressed them for a quicker turnaround if the need was there.

A VF2 table should be much simpler to swap out since it just straight bolts to the linear guides and ball nut. Access is also a nonissue, unlike the lathe turret. Not sure if shims are required.

You know your HFO better than we do, but it wouldn't be surprising if your local senior techs are more skilled than the factory techs.

I really need to just use the POS machine, and fix it later, even if it is on my dime, its just not cost effective now to even swap the table unless they overnighted it and swapped it by Monday.

I would see if your HFO can give you the green light to go ahead and use the machine in the meantime and schedule a table swap at a better time under warranty. I doubt that table will ever end up in another machine. It'll be sent back to Oxnard for review and someone's face is going to be very red. Then it'll end up in the scrap bin.

Overall, I wouldn't sweat this too much. It sucks that such a prominent component is defective, but just think of it as any other component, whether it be a spindle, a coolant pump, or even just a piece of sheet metal. Don't let it get to you.

Oh, and congrats on the 160k worth of POs.

 

[wheelieking71]

And now too add to the issue, before I left the shop tonight my #1 customer wants me to confirm or deny 4 PO's (one a month)from right now until Dec 5. to make 4X as many parts as we already do.
These 4 PO's equal $160,000.00
I really need to just use the POS machine, and fix it later, even if it is on my dime, its just not cost effective now to even swap the table unless they overnighted it and swapped it by Monday.
Ahhh!, If I had to do it over again(past 5 years), I would never wish owning a shitty machine shop on my worst enemy, such a shit business.

These times are what I like to call "good problems". But, wouldn't you rather that $160k cover 100% of your ROI on a machine worth owning?
You know, one that will be profitable for the max time after the 4 months of ZERO profit. I'm not keen on what a VF2 is worth new these days?
Cold chance in hell of haas selling me iron now. But, after seeing your pics, I would put exactly zero faith in the longevity of that machine!
I understand the "value of the customer"! (Trust me, it is the only reason I'm still afloat). And, that you gotta do what you gotta do to get this shit done!
But, is there any way you can get by with this POS until you can get something else on the floor?
As long as you haven't signed off, you should be able to reject it for a certain amount of time. That table flatness is obviously unacceptable.
If haas says that is acceptable? I wasn't aware how bad it has gotten and they are getting dangerously close to their demise.
Honestly, if you bolt vises down (you mentioned vises in your OP), and they indicate flat across the beds? Rock & Roll.
Then get the ball rolling on a different chunk of iron to replace that POS. Last I knew the VF2 is still the same basic iron it has been for a long-long time.
With new body-work, flashy paint, and floofy widgets and gizmos that seem to increase sales.
But, I would bet the core business of the tool (the important bits that actually define the machines capability) has been penny-pinched to death.
As evidenced by that table on your machine!
The cycle time to produce a quality table obviously dips way deeper in the profits than the stylish bodywork, and nifty widgets.
Weather this is true or not? I can't say. But, I can not see any other way to interpret this situation having dealt with haas over the last several years.
I mean for crying out loud: I had to replace a VF3 way-cover. It was $450. Literally 3 months later, that brand new cover exploded. Defective spot welds.
Obviously defective! They did zero about it other than charge me $900 for another new way cover! Yep! 100% price increase in 3 months.
I had my guy go over that cover and TIG everything together because I could see those spot-welds were poor just like the last.
That was the day they lost any faith I may have had. Which wasn't much after the Coldfire Sunset fiasco! haas is definitely not the company they once were.
Anyway (big tangent, LOL), in your situation:
Unless you are doing super aggressive roughing in tough material? They (the vises) probably wont move clamped to that table, and you will probably be fine.
Not knowing anything about the parts. I mean: your buying haas's. You can't be doing anything too hard-core.

 

[empower]

These times are what I like to call "good problems". But, wouldn't you rather that $160k cover 100% of your ROI on a machine worth owning?
You know, one that will be profitable for the max time after the 4 months of ZERO profit. I'm not keen on what a VF2 is worth new these days?
Cold chance in hell of haas selling me iron now. But, after seeing your pics, I would put exactly zero faith in the longevity of that machine!
I understand the "value of the customer"! (Trust me, it is the only reason I'm still afloat). And, that you gotta do what you gotta do to get this shit done!
But, is there any way you can get by with this POS until you can get something else on the floor?
As long as you haven't signed off, you should be able to reject it for a certain amount of time. That table flatness is obviously unacceptable.
If haas says that is acceptable? I wasn't aware how bad it has gotten and they are getting dangerously close to their demise.
Honestly, if you bolt vises down (you mentioned vises in your OP), and they indicate flat across the beds? Rock & Roll, and get the ball rolling on different iron.
Unless you are doing super aggressive roughing in tough material? They probably wont move and you will probably be fine.
Not knowing anything about the parts. I mean: your buying haas's. You can't be doing anything too hard-core.

non SS VF2 starts at 58k, you can load one up to like 150k with a 5x trunion etc.
i certainly wouldnt be buying a haas if i had 160k PO coming in. doosan at least.

 

[Jaxian]

The thing I must admit I find perplexing is that I was watching a Haas video a few years ago of them building a VF from the ground up. It was a neat video but I clearly remember one of the steps was the technician setting up a dial indicator and sweeping the table and granite blocks in all axes.

How could a tech do that test with that table? The indicator would have been bouncing everywhere. It didn't look like a set up either, just looked like a guy on the line finaling a machine. Really don't see how they could have done all that work to build a machine and not seen that and screamed to QC.

I guess what I am saying is everyone there who built that saw that table, and let it go out the door. How little do they care about their work?

 

[fmari --MariTool-]

The thing I must admit I find perplexing is that I was watching a Haas video a few years ago of them building a VF from the ground up. It was a neat video but I clearly remember one of the steps was the technician setting up a dial indicator and sweeping the table and granite blocks in all axes.

How could a tech do that test with that table? The indicator would have been bouncing everywhere. It didn't look like a set up either, just looked like a guy on the line finaling a machine. Really don't see how they could have done all that work to build a machine and not seen that and screamed to QC.

I guess what I am saying is everyone there who built that saw that table, and let it go out the door. How little do they care about their work?

How things are assembled during a video shoot and how things are assembled during a normal day can vary greatly.

 

[Houdini]

The thing I must admit I find perplexing is that I was watching a Haas video a few years ago of them building a VF from the ground up. It was a neat video but I clearly remember one of the steps was the technician setting up a dial indicator and sweeping the table and granite blocks in all axes.

How could a tech do that test with that table? The indicator would have been bouncing everywhere. It didn't look like a set up either, just looked like a guy on the line finaling a machine. Really don't see how they could have done all that work to build a machine and not seen that and screamed to QC.

I guess what I am saying is everyone there who built that saw that table, and let it go out the door. How little do they care about their work?

1000%, There is absolutely no way they didnt see this table 2 times, when the guy dialed in the table, and final QC, its just not possible.

 

[Houdini]

I want to share this little bit I got from a marketing guy I met from one of the large beer companies.
Not to say Haas does this at all, but its interesting, and the marketing guy I talked too said he has seen this implemented multiple times at large corporations.
There is a strategy where you make an extremely inexpensive product compared to the standard market.
You sell this product knowing that you are going to receive an extreme amount of returns on the low quality product.
The goal here is that the market gets flooded with this product name, user base, and product, even though its due to low cost, and large user base, it later will gain the name of junk.
But with the $ of sales minus the $ in returns, ,and the large mass of purchasers, even if you run it until the numbers reverse, you can make literally millions and millions and shut it down.
But also within this premise your product is out there everywhere, and its low quality insists on a lot of service and repair, and even if not. Due to the quantity of the product in the market
you can make millions from servicing all these products.
Now another add on is to have no "right to work" on this product, meaning you cannot access parts or information, or gain access into the software to repair the product yourself,
this ensures that they will receive the profits from these services, on these poor quality products, that they made poor quality on purpose for this exact financial situation.
Not a bad business model, if your a douche!

 

[Houdini]

I buy these machines fairly stripped, only the options I need, so $90k

 

[coyoinu]

The thing I must admit I find perplexing is that I was watching a Haas video a few years ago of them building a VF from the ground up. It was a neat video but I clearly remember one of the steps was the technician setting up a dial indicator and sweeping the table and granite blocks in all axes.

How could a tech do that test with that table? The indicator would have been bouncing everywhere. It didn't look like a set up either, just looked like a guy on the line finaling a machine. Really don't see how they could have done all that work to build a machine and not seen that and screamed to QC.

They don't use tenths indicators at the factory. five tenths for everyone.
I was arguing with one of the techs at the factory, showed him the head drooping a few tenths on the VMT-750 using a tenths indicator. "Nah, I don't want anything to do with that"

 

[Micmac1]

They'll say it's within "specs".........................

Literally haas's answer to everything

 

[david n]

I want to share this little bit I got from a marketing guy I met from one of the large beer companies.
Not to say Haas does this at all, but its interesting, and the marketing guy I talked too said he has seen this implemented multiple times at large corporations.
There is a strategy where you make an extremely inexpensive product compared to the standard market.
You sell this product knowing that you are going to receive an extreme amount of returns on the low quality product.
The goal here is that the market gets flooded with this product name, user base, and product, even though its due to low cost, and large user base, it later will gain the name of junk.
But with the $ of sales minus the $ in returns, ,and the large mass of purchasers, even if you run it until the numbers reverse, you can make literally millions and millions and shut it down.
But also within this premise your product is out there everywhere, and its low quality insists on a lot of service and repair, and even if not. Due to the quantity of the product in the market
you can make millions from servicing all these products.
Now another add on is to have no "right to work" on this product, meaning you cannot access parts or information, or gain access into the software to repair the product yourself,
this ensures that they will receive the profits from these services, on these poor quality products, that they made poor quality on purpose for this exact financial situation.
Not a bad business model, if your a douche!

Oh I think that this is exactly what Haas is doing and has been doing for quite some time..............Haas marketing has made the brand almost trendy...............and the fact that Haas iron is just barely good enough, it keeps folks coming back and buying more..................

Haas had two paths. One. Make a great reasonably priced USA made product and let the machines sell themselves. Or two. Let the marketing sell the heck out of a sub par piece of iron...........we know what the number crunchers and MBAs chose.............

 

[AJ H]

And now too add to the issue, before I left the shop tonight my #1 customer wants me to confirm or deny 4 PO's (one a month)from right now until Dec 5. to make 4X as many parts as we already do.
These 4 PO's equal $160,000.00
I really need to just use the POS machine, and fix it later, even if it is on my dime, its just not cost effective now to even swap the table unless they overnighted it and swapped it by Monday.
Ahhh!, If I had to do it over again(past 5 years), I would never wish owning a shitty machine shop on my worst enemy, such a shit business.

This sentiment is rampant on this forum, but I don't know. I'm sure there's white collar businesses that are better to be in, but I don't have the skills or pedigree for that. I catch myself a lot being unsatisfied and that's what keeps us driven. To stay grounded I have to remind myself that my life is a lot better than the single wide I grew up in and most people in the world are worse off than I am. Even with the long hours and the stress I can't imagine doing anything else.

 

[M.B. Naegle]

You cant cut to the limits of the table and it would look like trash if you tried. You could re-cut the Fadal tables.

This sentiment is rampant on this forum, but I don't know. I'm sure there's white collar businesses that are better to be in, but I don't have the skills or pedigree for that. I catch myself a lot being unsatisfied and that's what keeps us driven. To stay grounded I have to remind myself that my life is a lot better than the single wide I grew up in and most people in the world are worse off than I am. Even with the long hours and the stress I can't imagine doing anything else.

My solution to this is that I have a personal ("hobby" to most) interest in my field as well as my carrier in it. When there's a sucky customer draining the life out of the day, I can still go home and "play" doing mostly the same stuff. Result is I don't get burned out with the field of work, I just get tired of general business suckyness, and that's something you will find in every carrier path, so what can you do?

 

[FamilyTradition]

I would never wish owning a shitty machine shop on my worst enemy, such a shit business.

No matter what business you're in, you will have bullsh*t to deal with. Whether that's machine shop or retail store, owner or employee. You just have to figure out what your favorite flavor is.

Ask my friend who used to own a restaurant, he would say the same thing about the food business.

 

[Ox]

I want to share this little bit I got from a marketing guy I met from one of the large beer companies.
Not to say Haas does this at all, but its interesting, and the marketing guy I talked too said he has seen this implemented multiple times at large corporations.
There is a strategy where you make an extremely inexpensive product compared to the standard market.
You sell this product knowing that you are going to receive an extreme amount of returns on the low quality product.
The goal here is that the market gets flooded with this product name, user base, and product, even though its due to low cost, and large user base, it later will gain the name of junk.
But with the $ of sales minus the $ in returns, ,and the large mass of purchasers, even if you run it until the numbers reverse, you can make literally millions and millions and shut it down.
But also within this premise your product is out there everywhere, and its low quality insists on a lot of service and repair, and even if not. Due to the quantity of the product in the market
you can make millions from servicing all these products.
Now another add on is to have no "right to work" on this product, meaning you cannot access parts or information, or gain access into the software to repair the product yourself,
this ensures that they will receive the profits from these services, on these poor quality products, that they made poor quality on purpose for this exact financial situation.
Not a bad business model, if your a douche!

Haas of today is the South Bend of yesteryear.
They are everywhere b/c of their price, not their quality.


------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[DDoug]

Haas of today is the South Bend of yesteryear.
They are everywhere b/c of their price, not their quality.


------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

...and the schools, they put them in every vo-tech class.

 

[MCritchley]

The real issue now is between the 2 problems. Do I keep the table that is within a tight tolerance of alignment but only has 10% surface contact with my vises.
Or do I let the local HFO replace the table, and possibly/likely have a far less tolerance of alignment table.

Get one of Hass’s tech’s in and have them simply scrape the high spots down. A good scraper hand could do that in a few days.

I’m kidding of course, but I have seen it done on a large boring mill when the shop was slow.

 

[Micmac1]

We will be done with Haas also, already swapping 1 machine out in 4 weeks. we had a crash on a brand new lathe where an insert broke on the tailstock casting during a tool change at 25% rapid, tool was fine just needed new insert, machine alarmed out....Chuck was not rotating or anything literally just knicked the top of the casting because tool was out too far....machine needed to be aligned at the tailstock, turret, spindle, x & z ways. when asked why a semi minor crash would throw the spindle chuck and z out when crashed on the x axis during a tool change, the answer was we crashed the machine and i quote "was crashed to slow" and if it had tool changed at a faster rapid less damage would be done because machine would have alarmed out faster. nothing but issues with the newer haas stuff, its just built cheap. Our old VFoe was a beast for 20+ years and at this point id take a used one of those 20 years old over a new one.

 

[cnctoolcat]

If this new machine will help you get it done, then accept those nice PO's, and rock on!

Tell Haas they owe you a new table here in a few months, and you would prefer to have a ground one.

For the table now, if your vices indicate good, then you're good to go. Actually, less surface area contact between the table and vices makes for higher clamping forces per contact-square inch when the vices are clamped down.

ToolCat