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My Very Own Monarch 10EE Restoration

So I got everything to work! it seemed that the big hang-up was the Field Failure relay not closing. With the main contactor. I nudged the contacts closed with a piece of wood while depressing the Start button and everything lit up like Rockafeller Plaza at Christmas! Now the field failure relay closes the way it's supposed to. It's worth noting there's a bit in the 10ee manual for the modular drive that mentions adjusting the sping tension on the field failure relay if it's not closing. I imagine I just overcame some mechanical stickiness that was keeping it from closing properly.

I had something similar in my WiaD drive, dried oil was holding a relay closed longer than it should. I ended up cleaning all my relay pivots and stops with some cotton buds and solvent - I recall using toluene b/c I couldn't get MEK right away.

I'm sure I've made some assumptions that are wrong about how the WIAD works or even fundamentals about electricity, but if someone came in and corrected those assumptions, I'd be super grateful.

I didn't see anything horribly wrong.

Some other things I'm curious about: The schematic for the modular drive identifies a section as the "Phase Shift Circuit. What exactly does that do, and is there a part of the WIAD that serves the same purpose?

It's just the armature voltage supply.
 
On a related note, it was about 55 deg in the shop and it took the tubes a good 10 to 15 min. to warm up. I fired it up after about 3 min. and drive operation was really wonky, and shut itself down when the field failed and the relay did its job....thankfully! Alittle scary, but my finger was on the stop button just in case. After a much longer warm up, it performed flawlessly for the use time which was a couple of hours. Ah, love them old electronics.. :)
 
So now that's it's turning, I'm noticing that it doesn't want to stay in gear. When I try to engage the open belt, it immediately jumps out of gear. It doesn't seem to have a problem keeping the back gear engaged when I move the lever to select it. There's no mention of adjusting the linkage in the manual. Is it typically something that needs to be adjusted, or am I looking at a bad gearbox.

I searched gearbox stuff briefly and didn't come across anything like what I'm seeing.
 
So now that's it's turning, I'm noticing that it doesn't want to stay in gear. When I try to engage the open belt, it immediately jumps out of gear. It doesn't seem to have a problem keeping the back gear engaged when I move the lever to select it. There's no mention of adjusting the linkage in the manual. Is it typically something that needs to be adjusted, or am I looking at a bad gearbox.

I searched gearbox stuff briefly and didn't come across anything like what I'm seeing.

Play with the length of the arm that goes from the lever to the gearbox. Start by removing the rod from one end and see how much travel you have to the stops on each end and see how short of that you are, then play with the stops on each end to get it engaging on both.

Have you tried to tune the drive? It really shouldn't take 15 minutes to stabilize, mine took less even when used in an unheated garage and was starting around 40 degF. Tuning process is in the manual or you could PM me your email and I'll send something there.
 
I tuned it not to long ago, but it has always been finicky when cold, never in summer. Probably just a tempermental tube. After the tubes are lit and everything is good and warm, it runs perfect for hours and hours. I might purchase a set of the new solid state replacements as back up though. I am thinking of making a clear cover over at the WIAD end and putting a mirror on the wall, just to look at the pretty colors.
 
So my 10ee restoration is going pretty good. I've gotten paint on and most of the mechanical work is complete. The field failure relay is still giving me some fits though.

I got everything back together and I thought things were going great for about 5 minutes. Then I heard some clacking and clicking like a contactor was trying to open/close really rapidly. It might have been the field failure relay, but I think it was the main contactor. I suspected the 3c23 tubes and replaced them with the spares I had. As soon as I plugged the machine back in, I got smoke from the electrical cabinet. It was too quick for me to figure out where it came from, but it definitely killed the 3c23 tube on the right-hand side. I went back to the original 3c23's and things seemed okay, but the field failure relay still isn't closing.

I'll try to characterize the behavior more clearly when I get back to the shop today. In the meantime, here's what it looks like now.

IMG_20200324_172059.jpgIMG_20200325_190301.jpg
 
There are some 10 ohm power resistors in series with a 3 amp fuse for each tube that is what may have smoked on you check them to see if they have been Hot.
 
They are on the back side of the panel you have to pull the drawer out near middle top. They are 10 watt or bigger wire wound. I cannot take a picture as I have striped all that out of my machine.
 
I found the resistors and one of them was definitely open. I went ahead and ordered some 25 watt replacements. Hopefully it's the last thing I'm missing in the drive circuit. While I'm waiting for the resistors to show up, I'll move on to the back gear.

Right now, the way the linkage is adjusted it will stay in back gear, but when I put it into open belt it just kicks the dogs apart and back into neutral after some awful clacking noises. Rather than attempt to adjust the linkage, I went straight to dismantling the gearbox.

There didn't seem to be a seal of any kind on the main output shaft. that didn't really seem right. Also, when the pulley was on, there was some axial play on the pulley that was not trivial. I think I might be missing something in the bearing stack up.

The dog teeth definitely could look better. I suppose building it up with silicon-bronze and filing it down is the way people typically go when making this repair. The spur gears look like they have plenty of life left to me, but you can judge for yourself.

So, should I be doing something to address that endplay? Is there supposed to be a seal at the end of the shaft?

Album of my back gear
 
I dug through PM searching things like "10ee back gear rebuild" and "10ee gearbox rebuild." I'm not finding any that are particularly authoritative or have really helpful pictures.

This thread seemed to be particularly relevant, but it didn't seem to resolve itself with a solution.
Monarch 10EE gearbox excessive endplay

This thread had some info on the bearings and where to get them, but no pictures that helped me determine if something was missing in mine.
Angular Contact Bearing replacement for Back-Gear unit

I'm really just trying to determine if my only issue is just the dogs, or if I'm missing a snap ring or spacer that's supposed to take up that end-to-end slop in the output pulley. I've already resolved to address them with TIG rod and grinding, but is that endplay in the output shaft an issue I need to address? The threads I'm finding that discuss it seem divided.

Capture.jpg The retaining nut: EE2367 looks different from the one I have installed on the machine. You can compare it to the one in my album from here. Would that cause the endplay issue I'm seeing?
 
This thread has some good pictures of the gearbox and hardware.
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/monarch-lathes/round-dial-backgear-oil-leak-372520/?highlight=monarch+10ee+back+gear+bearings

This thread had a good picture of all the parts that go into the box for the backgear:
Monarch 10EE Gearbox Problem

Great info about the bearing stackup of the backgear output, but the OP used Photobucket to host his images:angry: :
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/monarch-lathes/suggestions-bearing-assembly-sequence-248764/?highlight=monarch+10ee+back+gear+bearings

More info good info on the backgear output shaft bearings:
round-dial 10EE end gear bearings: info for reference

How to get the ouput shaft off of the bearing stack if it's stuck
10ee backgear bearing

So, it seems like my output shaft (EE 2464) should have a different end cap (EE 2467) that pulls it up and against the large bearing on the motor side (EE 2466).
gearbox.jpg
Anyone got a good picture of what EE 2467 should look like on a typical WIAD machine?
 

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I now have a turning spindle! I finally got the field faliure relay to close after I went through a pair of 3c23 tubes and 3A fuses. Then I started fiddling with the motor rheostat as I depressed the start button. I realized that the whole time I was trying to close the field failure relay, the throttle might have been maxed out with the weakest possible field. Sure enough, depressing the start button and then lowering the throttle does indeed cause enough current to flow so that the relay coil closes. I resolve to appreciate this as a quirk of antique machine ownership. The moment I hit the throttle forward, the spindle rockets to 1000 RPM. That's easy, I know those sweet C16J's are good because I can see them glowing, so it must be the armature control tube. I stop the machine. The 6N7 tube is warm, but I have a replacement, so I swap it. The replacement doesn't look as pretty as the suspect 6n7 that I pulled. Everything works, but it doesn't work well. Below 1000 RPM the motor makes a terrible knocking noise that I thought was gearbox clash, but it's electrical. I can see the tubes flicker in time with the crashing noise. I stopped short of putting a hose up to my ear and chasing the noise down, but I'm pretty certain this is electrical noise. Is my second 6N7 tube also a goner? I have a scope, but I need to know what kind of trace comes off a healthy 6N7.

Here's a video of me demonstrating the malfunction. I know it looks one C16J isn't firing, but at higher speeds it does. Above 1000 rpm the glow is steady from both. So now I am suspicious that my second 6N7 tube is weak on one side. I will investigate that tomorrow as well checking all the filament voltages. I should also replace the caps and will start sourcing replacements.

I also found this thread where Mr Bridgeport had what sounds like my exact same symptoms, but he left us all hanging and never concluded the repair, or told us about it.
 
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Here's a video of me demonstrating the malfunction. I know it looks one C16J isn't firing, but at higher speeds it does. Above 1000 rpm the glow is steady from both. So now I am suspicious that my second 6N7 tube is weak on one side. I will investigate that tomorrow as well checking all the filament voltages. I should also replace the caps and will start sourcing replacements.

Swap the C16Js, see if the problem stays with the tube or the position. I think I've seen that behaviour with a bad C16J.
 
Hi Russ,

I did you one better and I swapped the C16J's out for the SCR's from Scissio Controls and the problem didn't go away. I ordered replacements caps for all the paper-type capacitors in the metal cans. Digi-Key had some thin-film versions that seemed adequately spec'd.

How do most people handle installing these replacements? Do you just solder them in place and let them dangle by the leads? Do you tape them down? Make brackets so they mount like the originals? I'm also going to leave in all the .001 ufd caps since I've since been informed that they aren't the kind of capacitor that generally goes bad. I also ordered some spare 6sf5 and 6n7 tubes just in case the ones I have are problematic. They're cheap and I would like to rule them out.

Lastly, I ordered 500 feet of 18 AWG MTW wire. I'm girding my loins for a complete rewire of at least the WIAD and maybe the DC panel. Are there other wire gauges I should have on hand before I start this? What about crimp style ring terminals? It seems like the factory just tinned the wire ends with solder and bent them into hooks before securing the terminal.

Here's what I ordered from Digi-KeyCapture.jpg Click this attachment. The "attached thumbnail" always screws up when I upload a PNG.
 

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I'd solder them in place. If the leads feel too flimsy you could add wire or shrink tubing to stiffen them up.

500' of wire is a starting point. You might need twice that by the time you're done. I never did mine, will leave it for a descendant.

Crimping ring terminals would be a stylin' way to go.

Before you go too far try watching the relays in the DC box when it's thunking like that. I think that can be an effect of one of the relays being too sensitive.
 
Having completely rewired and restored my 59 WIAD, I think I boasted about using over 1000 ft. of wire. Of course all different gages. Mine had so many jumpers, bodged repairs, and rotted insulation, this was the only alternative. Since I have but basic electrical expertise, making detailed drawings of each wire as it was removed proved invaluable as well as RKeplers factory schematic, and I was able to compare and weed out what was wired incorrectly. Every and I mean every component was bench checked, cleaned, (this does not guarantee that they will work in service, but 20yrs in is pretty good) all resistors and available caps were replaced, and tubes checked ( I have a technicians 50's tube tester found on the side of the road that proved quite useful). But proof is in the pudding and except for a occasional wonky tube and a long warmup, the unit is flawless and smooth. Btw, I crimped and soldered every connection, I'm sure someone will poo poo this, but hey.
 
Okay. I replaced all the caps except for the four small mica ones. None of the caps were short, but they were all out of spec by 10%-50%. While I was in there, I replaced the most problematic looking wires with 12 AWG MTW wire and checked the resistance of the various pots in the WIAD. Several of them didn't measure how I would expect, so I sprayed some electrical contact cleaner into them and swept them through their ranges until I got a smooth response on the multimeter. I checked the armature end of the main speed control rheostat at contacts S1 and 1 and it seemed to behave exactly as I would've expected (gradually increasing response to the halfway point). I didn't know how to test the field side since measuring resistance at 15 and 16 yields a closed circuit.

After replacing the caps and wire, I went ahead and went through the initial electrical setup. I could not get the reading to settle for the Minimum Speed potentiometer that allowed me to dial into 98v. The meter just kept jumping around a center point for +/-8v. The motor still has that electrical "chunk chunk" noise from the video I posted earlier. It is unchanged in nature as far as I can tell. I have lots of spare tubes and tried switching out several to see if the behavior changed at all (3c23, 6h6, 6sf5, 6n7). Completing the initial electrical calibration outlined in the manual as best I could didn't lead to anything interesting or new. I will say that I have no problem getting the spindle to 4000 RPM. At the higher speeds (1500 RPM+) you'd never know something was amiss.

One behavior that is interesting: if I turn the speed control all the way down and then kick the headstock switch to forward, the spindle lurches about half a turn or so before stopping and staying stopped. I'm starting to wonder if the motor itself might have some problems. Given that I can reach top speed and there are no problems closing the field-failure relay at start-up, I think I can rule out anything connected to the field control circuit. The armature-control circuit I'm not as confident about.

I think next time I'm at the shop I'm going to pull the 6x5 tube to rule out the compensation circuit acting out, then see if my problems replicate themselves when the motor is running reverse. If nothing reveals itself, I'll start pulling the motor.
 
I pulled the motor first thing, the big 5hp GE. Never tried it first, although no real way to try it without having a fully working WIAD, and that was just one more component not to have to deal with. I took it to a big industrial electric motor place, and said make it right, and I guess the shop foreman took an interest, as it came back looking like a brand new one off the shelf, with all the certs and test sheets. I got the impression from the foreman? that this was one of those motors that they just don't make em like this like they used to type of thing. I understand it required a complete armature rewind, who knows what else, etc. Not cheap, but has been running smooth and quiet for all these years since the restoration.
 








 
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