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Need help identifying projectile

ken moss

Stainless
Joined
Oct 18, 2002
Location
woodland wa clark
years ago estate find 1917 trench mortar right off the scrap pile $1 next gun show it sat on dads and my table gone in a hart beat $450. But the screw up of this sale was the 500lbs anvil that sat in the front yard I had stop in many times trying to buy it over the years. I was unbolting some nice vises off a work table and someone walks in. what about the old anvil in the front yard covered with plywood the old boy its for sale $100. ken
 

thermite

Diamond
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Location
Sol, Terra
Sounds like expert advice. Seems like whatever authority ends up with this thing, will cook it off or something to get rid of it. If it turns out to be inert any chance of JJ getting it back to safely put on the shelf?

In a word "no fine way".

Some similarities to Dale as a 2d generation CE meself, Artillerymen as well, then Civil demo, etc. "[email protected]" & "[email protected]" both personal friends, my sunset years. Those lads and their expert teams have been hard at it since War Two... disposing of 'UXB" & shells that turn-up all over Hong Kong and adjacent waters, practically every day of the week. They have a museum/research collection, just not open to the public. Also some lovely remote controlled gear they pioneered and engineered themselves.

One simply does NOT take that risk. No need, even.

You want an inert shell for display or training? You source it from the MANY that were made specifically FOR training and display.

Not as if they evaporate with age. Various museums and collections have all that mankind 'actually needs'.

Besides.. those among us who've actually had to work with this s**t are never quite comfortable around them, and not all THAT comfortable around other people who exhibit any sort of "fondness" for it!

It just ain't "normal". Most especially not after you've had to deal with what their tribe does to yer brethren when used in anger, INCOMING!! ..not in training.

:(
 

1yesca

Stainless
Joined
Jun 1, 2004
a few things come to mind the val forget story about him going to bannerman island and having the guy with him give him a boost so he could remove the fuse from the two big bombs that were standing on end at the front door way and here in the san diego area there was camp eliott and like a lot of old military bases that were in the middle nowhere there ends up being house around them tearasanta is one of them not so much now but back in the 70's and 80's someone would find one of them shells and if they did the right thing they called the cops the fire department someone if they were adventurous well sometime it was ok and sometimes it was not SDPD has a sub station up there by the airport or they did and this ex cop at the range was telling how back in the day someone would come in with one of these things they were ask to go put it back in your car and come back in . so do with it what you will but please do it by yourself so if it goes bang its only you
 

thermite

Diamond
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Location
Sol, Terra
a few things come to mind the val forget story about him going to bannerman island and having the guy with him give him a boost so he could remove the fuse from the two big bombs that were standing on end at the front door way and here in the san diego area there was camp eliott and like a lot of old military bases that were in the middle nowhere there ends up being house around them tearasanta is one of them not so much now but back in the 70's and 80's someone would find one of them shells and if they did the right thing they called the cops the fire department someone if they were adventurous well sometime it was ok and sometimes it was not SDPD has a sub station up there by the airport or they did and this ex cop at the range was telling how back in the day someone would come in with one of these things they were ask to go put it back in your car and come back in . so do with it what you will but please do it by yourself so if it goes bang its only you

Not ALL of PRC's press is propaganda:

Meet the heroes defusing WWII bombs in Hong Kong - Xinhua | English.news.cn

Note the remarks on danger of Japanese ordnance vs US or UK made.

"Military" explosives are specifically selected and/or designed in the lab for long-term stability in storage and high resistance to all manner of accidental detonation. They have HAD to be to become more danger to foe than friend.

But nations at war also have their industrial and economic backs to the wall- make do with what they have, not what they only wished they had.

Obsolete NOW, but I KNOW four different ways to disarm an anti-tamper Teller 42 or 43 anti-tank mine "in place". That had succeeded.

And also why we never attempt it. Textbook says "blow in-place". Period.

Devilishly unpredictable corrosive byproducts of their "Picric ACID" filler.

Those were probably among the worst examples, ever, for degradation risk in a massive-deadly size, and built in large numbers. We CAN deal with that sort of thing if we must. But ONLY if we "must". S**t can still "happen". Witness Tony's team EVACUATING a whole HK neighbourhood, Hospital and all, and still not getting away 'clean'. And his team are among the best trained, experienced - and best EQUIPPED - on the whole planet. They HAVE to be.

So - even though "trafficed" by opportunists to the desperate after War Two ended, there aren't many - if ANY - of them left. NOW. Anywhere. Eventually something as innocent as temperature change can trigger them.
Fortunately.

But Teller mines were not, and are not, the ONLY nasty-package that degrades in the dangerouser direction.
Un
fortunately.
 

Scottl

Diamond
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Location
Eastern Massachusetts, USA
I'm not an antique munitions expert by any stretch, but by the rifling imprints on the ring and the damage to the nose, it looks like it was fired, perhaps into dirt, and didn't detonate.

My feelings also. My guess after looking at the nose and the grooves on the driving ring is that this was a "dummy", an inert practice round fired into a sand pit and reused until no longer practical. They would be propelled by the same cartridge as a live round.
 

thermite

Diamond
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Location
Sol, Terra
My feelings also. My guess after looking at the nose and the grooves on the driving ring is that this was a "dummy", an inert practice round fired into a sand pit and reused until no longer practical. They would be propelled by the same cartridge as a live round.

Competent EOD / BDO don't take the risk of such "guesses" even if the evidence trends that way.

Carefully transported to a safe demo-range, into a blast pit, and/or sandbagged, blast mat over... etc. wotever yah HAVE... 1/4 lb block of primed TNT ("back in the day", anyway...) and blow the f**ker.

"Charlie", bless his valiant, but oft poorly informed enemy heart, took a slew of sapper casualties one wee-dark Long Binh night to get satchel charges into a storage area. Body of one was over his satchel charge, time-detonating device the typical cheap asian-made 'pinlever" wristwatch with tiny brass screw through the plastic crystal. I disarmed it. All the while QMC LT Jay Best was hoppimg around "Call EOD! Call EOD!"

"Lootenant? It is a time-based device. You act NOW, not when the time has been consumed, already! And whom was it you thought TRAINED 'EOD', if not Corps of Engineers ANYWAY?"

I did say "misguided?

Yah well.. the storage concentration of CONEX containers the enemy died trying to blow up?

Ammo? Food? ACAV parts? Fuel? Comms gear? Noo..

Nowt but many, many, many thousands of pairs of ...... GI Boots, fatigues, and camo underwear! Prolly half rotten, already, too. You'd have to know the tropics and predatory fungoides with their own verions of an airmobile attack transport wing?

Go figure it was even THERE, stacked in huge arrays of CONEX containers if it weren't in silly-massive over-over-supply relative to the actual needs of the war effort!

:D

We had Lootenant Best in the right place, anyway. It was HIS goods he was fretting over!

I was just "Reaction Force Commander", that night. Sorta like "temping" for Manpower or such.

:)
 

stoneaxe

Stainless
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Location
pacific northwest
Never been military, know nothing about ordnance, but there are a few things here about risk assessment-

1-is the risk real, not real, or unknown? Clearly, unknown.
2-what is the risk consequence, if real? Clearly, catastrophic.
3- what is the benefit to ignoring potential risk? A mantelpiece decoration.

So for the sake of a piece of military trivia, risk killing someone(s)? nucking futz- hand it over to them that knows how to deal with it-

Look at it like this- there has been 100 years of grace here- don't push God's gift anymore.
 

thermite

Diamond
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Location
Sol, Terra
Never been military, know nothing about ordnance, but there are a few things here about risk assessment-

1-is the risk real, not real, or unknown? Clearly, unknown.
2-what is the risk consequence, if real? Clearly, catastrophic.
3- what is the benefit to ignoring potential risk? A mantelpiece decoration.

So for the sake of a piece of military trivia, risk killing someone(s)? nucking futz- hand it over to them that knows how to deal with it-

Look at it like this- there has been 100 years of grace here- don't push God's gift anymore.

Any Demo / BDO guru could wish TF MORE civilians had as much common sense.

The engines of warfare and death are exactly what they were intended to be.

They have neither brains nor conscience, no concept of "luck", only malfunction-delayed.. maybe.

Nor surely any notion of the mercy to simply take prisoners nor have pity on souevenir collectors.

Spot on!

But do not "hand it over".

Better to simply leave it TF as it sets.. make the call.. POINT to where it sets, and GTF out of our road!.

"We have our ways", thereafter, thank you!

There are OLD BDO's. There are bold BDO's.

There ARE NO "old, bold" BDO's.

:(
 

trevj

Titanium
Joined
May 17, 2005
Location
Interior British Columbia
There was a newspaper story of a fellow who netted a 500-pound bomb, brought it into New York, and took a photo of his child setting on it.
Can't remember what trouble he got into but it was a big deal the police and a bomb squad came to retrieve the bomb.

I was fishing in a nice bay near Pensacola Florida and wondered why I was the only boat in that nice bay.
When I checked the chart I found warning unexploded bombs Keep out.

But, How was the fishing?
 

seiner

Aluminum
Joined
Jan 9, 2008
Location
Valdez, Alaska
This is longest run on sentence i've in awhile. A shame. I'd like to know what it says.

a few things come to mind the val forget story about him going to bannerman island and having the guy with him give him a boost so he could remove the fuse from the two big bombs that were standing on end at the front door way and here in the san diego area there was camp eliott and like a lot of old military bases that were in the middle nowhere there ends up being house around them tearasanta is one of them not so much now but back in the 70's and 80's someone would find one of them shells and if they did the right thing they called the cops the fire department someone if they were adventurous well sometime it was ok and sometimes it was not SDPD has a sub station up there by the airport or they did and this ex cop at the range was telling how back in the day someone would come in with one of these things they were ask to go put it back in your car and come back in . so do with it what you will but please do it by yourself so if it goes bang its only you
 

thermite

Diamond
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Location
Sol, Terra
This is longest run on sentence i've in awhile. A shame. I'd like to know what it says.

Wish granted:

"do it by yourself so if it goes bang its only you"

The rest was of no partic'lar consequence, y'see.

"Do not f**k with it!" wudda been sounder advice. As has been posted. Already. More than once, even.

Tens of MILLIONS of folk been blowed up ever since the ability to make it happen became common.

Too late NOW for them .... in their milliards... ain't it?

Message in there somewhere's that "this s**t KILLS!!!" ??

Seems so..

Surely we ain't yet seen no item of ordnance meant to suck d**k instead, have we?
 

duckfarmer27

Stainless
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Location
Upstate NY
Here's the consequences of a similar sized (75mm) WW1 trophy shell detonating, in 1922.

Madera Mercury 13 July 1922 — California Digital Newspaper Collection

Ballen -

Pine Camp was the first name for what is now Fort Drum - which I have spent a LOT of time at. Sad story but exactly what can happen.

With a dud or misfire you never know what/when might cause a detonation.

I believe it was May of 1982. I was the S3 (Operations Officer - which made me in charge of training) of a National Guard combat engineer battalion. We were at our 2 week annual training - strangely enough not at Fort Drum but at Indiantown Gap which is outside Harrisburg, PA. We had a hand grenade range going. Hand grenades have a tendency to get untrained people in trouble - and I have seen cases where the nerves can get to someone. As it was the most dangerous training we had going on right then I was there to make sure it went off safely. As I remember that range had 6 positions. Once you have it going there is a rhythm to it with the commands, thrower stands up, throws the grenade, drops back into the pit, etc. Three seconds after the throw command you should hear the detonation of the grenade. Things were going nice and smooth, I'm a safe distance behind the range tower that is controlling things - so I break out my thermos, pour a cup of coffee and am sitting on the hood of my quarter ton. Hear the boom in sequence - then three seconds later another boom behind me and to my left. WTF - call a check fire to range control to shut down all live fire. To make a long story short - we ended up with every strap hanger and horse holder on the place there and EOD (bomb disposal) comes out. From what is found where the explosion happened it was a fragmentary grenade like we were using. EOD does a search down range on the range and finds three other dud grenades out there. Now on a range if you throw a grenade and nothing goes off the rule is you shut down, call range control and EOD. After the safe waiting period EOD goes out, finds it, puts a charge next to it and blows both up. One or more previous users had duds and just left them. It was just our luck that one of the guys landed a grenade close enough to the dud that it kicked it up in the air sending it back and over the firing line and at the same time setting the fuse burning. I'll leave it to you to figure the probability on that chain of events. One of my guys actually got a small piece of the frag grenade in the back of his leg - barely drew blood. But we were lucky. It could have just as easily dropped into one of the pits - or in my coffee.

That is just one of the reasons I have a healthy respect for such things. I'm not scared of them - but you have to have respect. Live firing, demolitions, aviation and other such activities are not inherently deadly but they are VERY unforgiving. You need to know what you are doing and have respect. Rolling the dice with unknowns is not worth it.

And if I could have gotten my hands on the SOB range officer that left the duds there I would have shoved them down his throat.

Dale
 

UncleFrank

Cast Iron
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Location
Midwest, USA
I was on the grenade range at Ft Polk, LA in the mid-70s. There were probably half a dozen concrete pits with the floors sloped toward a grenade sump in the front. There was an AI (Assistant Instructor if I'm remembering right) assigned to each pit. I don't know who you had to piss off to get that duty.

I'm in the pit with the pin pulled ready to throw. Some dumbass a couple pits over barely gets his over the berm right in front of us. The concussion knocked me and the AI off our feet. I'm laying on my back with a live grenade and the AI is on his hands and knees next to the sump. He shakes his head, opens his eyes wide and inquires, "WHERE'S THAT F****** GRENADE?!?!?!?"

I tell him I've got it. We get up and he makes me go through all the motions again before I throw it; I think more for his benefit than mine.
 

duckfarmer27

Stainless
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
Location
Upstate NY
There was an AI (Assistant Instructor if I'm remembering right) assigned to each pit. I don't know who you had to piss off to get that duty.

Uncle Frank -

I can relate for sure.

Summer of 69 I was doing what amounted to basic training if you were in ROTC - 6 weeks. I was at Indiantown Gap (and after what happened in my previous tale I swore I would never, ever go on the grenade range there ever again - a promise I have kept - not tempting fate a 3d time). That summer I think there were 4 bases that had this training going on - as I recall the most number of officers were commissioned in 70 since WW2.

The day before a cadet had blown up himself and the AI at Fort Benning somehow on the grenade range. The instructors/support troops we had were from Bragg, all 82d troops and 99% were Nam vets. The NCOIC (NCO in charge - running the range) used the typical 82d method - raising mary living hell over what had happened the day before. Even then I tended to not be too excitable and I'm thinking this might not go well with anyone who was nervous and jerky to start with. This was long enough ago that the pits were sand bag affairs, with grenade sumps. I get to the pit and there is a cool, calm and collected SSG (with CIB) squatting in the back of the pit with a cold pipe in his mouth. He sizes me up and asks if I'm nervous. I tell him I think I have it OK. He tells me that if I drop it for any reason just flop over the wall and let him handle it. To which my reply is 'you got it sarge'. All goes off without a hitch. I've sometimes thought of that nameless NCO who was a cool professional, especially when I have to deal with idiots.

We had a guy in our platoon named Arnold. Arnold was a good guy but had coke bottle glasses and was at times a klutz. The same range was used for 90mm recoilless rifle and 3.5 rocket launcher firing. Yes I'm so old I have fired a 3.5 rocket launcher. There were two rows of targets - derelict personnel carriers. The first row was closer for the 3.5 and as we were using the baby blue inert rockets there was a huge pile of cast iron expended rockets piled up in front of each track. The second row was much further out and we were firing live 90mm rounds at those. Got through the 3.5 firing no problem, then on to the 90mm. I was the assistant gunner and they were doing a ripple firing to get us through quicker. From where I was I can see the ripple coming towards us and - CRAP - what did Arnold fire at? He plowed an HE round into a mound of the dummy rocket launcher waste in the first row. Of course the rest of the line is firing and pretty soon it's raining rocket bodies. And of course the NCOs on the range are going nuts. They were sloppy enough that they failed to note it was Arnold - which was good. But of course we all ended up paying for the error. How to NOT run a range.

Learned a lot that summer about people. That period is where I started to formulate my respect for professionalism - which is not necessarily tied to whatever rank someone happens to be wearing.

Dale
 

UncleFrank

Cast Iron
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Location
Midwest, USA
Back then you had to qualify for the live grenade range. There were two rows of telephone poles layed down on the ground some distance apart. Also a cable stretched between poles about half way between the two rows of poles on the ground and maybe 20ft up in the air.

You had to stand behind the first row of poles, throw a practice grenade over the cable and past the second row of poles to qualify to throw a live grenade. It was obvious when some personnel failed the test on purpose but the DIs didn't berate them for it.

We had one kid from Dallas built like a fullback. When he threw his practice grenade it went over the cable, past the second row of poles and nearly out of sight. He got a big cheer for that; it was amazing.
 








 
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