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Need help with getting power to lathe

4BDoc

Plastic
Joined
Nov 12, 2022
Hello,

I recently picked up a belt driven cast iron lathe for a very good price. The lathe is of uncertain make (pictures below). However it did not come with a countershaft to hook it up to a motor.
My question then is, what is the best way to power this lathe. I would prefer to stay away from VFD control for a variety of reasons. I do have multiple suitable motors in the 1/2 to 1 HP range. Can I purchase a generic countershaft or are they specific to a model/brand? Is there another way to get temporary power to the machine, enough to possibly make a suitable step pulley?
I have time as the lathe needs a deep cleaning before it can be used.IMG_20221112_212721605_1.jpgIMG_20221112_212610911.jpgIMG_20221112_212713003.jpgIMG_20221112_212656938.jpgIMG_20221112_212702495.jpgIMG_20221112_212649217.jpg
 
You can power it with anything that will drive a flat belt. A line shaft, a home made countershaft , or a flat belt pulley mounted directly on a motor shaft. The key factor is matching the pulley ratio to the speed of the motor so you can turn the chuck at the proper speed range. Are your motors single or three phase? If as I suspect they are single phase then a vfd can't be used anyway. If you did want to use a three phase motor then a vfd would allow speed control with out moving the belt between pulley's
 
You could start looking on e-Bay:
E-Bay Counter Shaft
The important thing is to find one with the same size pulley steps - The same size increments between the steps as on your lathe.
The counter shaft doesn't need the exact size pulleys - They can be larger or smaller, but the difference between the steps needs to be the same, so the belt tension won't vary when you change speeds.
Of course, you won't find one for your exact lathe - You'll have to fabricate some kind of mounting arrangement, but that's the nature of the beast.
 
I would suggest looking for an "orphan" countershaft meant for a different lathe that uses similar flat belt step pulleys. Sometimes pieces like that will be around after the lathe has been scrapped. Other option is a similar"orphan" headstock and rig a V belt reduction to drive it.

Even if the step pulleys don't have the same size difference you can still use it by incorporating either a sliding mount to tension the belt or rig an automotive serpentine belt tensioner pulley to bear down on the top of the belt. Spring loaded or counterweight, either should work.
 
Countershaft assemblies with integral motor mounts for Southbend 9" and light 10" lathes are quite commonly available as used parts. Whether the step width on the cone pulley of your lathe's headstock would match the width of the steps on the Southbend 9" & light 10" countershafts remains to be determined.

If you are handy at light steel fabrication, building a countershaft is not a big project. Some members of this 'board have made lathe countershafts with wooden step cone pulleys. The beauty of wooden step cone pulleys is that they can be made to the required number of steps, width, and diameters to match the lathe headstock's cone pulley. The other beauty of using wooden step cone pulleys is that they can be turned to final shape/diameter in place on the countershaft. The countershaft becomes its own 'wood turning lathe'. Hardwood is cut and joined using glue to form a series of discs. These are then glued and joined together using wood dowels to form a stack of wood discs which is an oversized/rough version of the pulley needed. The stacks of discs have a center hole corresponding to the shaft they will be assembled onto. A common method of assembling and driving this type of shop made wood pulley is to get a sprocket with a hub bored & keyed to the diameter of shafting to be used for the countershaft. This sprocket is mounted against the end face of the largest step on the wooden cone pulley and is through-bolted from the smallest step, thru all the steps to the largest step and thru the steel sprocket. This bolting pulls the wood step cones together and transmits the torque.

Once the wooden step cone pulley is assembled on the countershaft, the countershaft is run under power and a temporary tool rest is rigged up. Freehand turning is then done to turn the steps to required diameter and crowning. Wooden flat belt pulleys work quite well, and allow fabrication of a cone pulley with minimal equipment.

I just finished installation of a countershaft for an ancient Barnes camelback drill press. I fabricated the countershaft framing out of 2" square steel tube, since the countershaft stands almost as tall as the drill press itself. I used sealed ball bearing pillow blocks which have spherical outer races- allowing for some slight misalignment of mounting pads on something like a countershaft frame. I turned the crowning off an old tractor belt pulley to give a wide pulley to shift the belt from tight and loose pulleys. The entire countershaft assembly pivots on a 5/8" diameter steel shaft to allow adjustment for belt tension. I used a 'top link' for a tractor's 3 point hitch to adjust belt tension between countershaft and the drill press's tight/loose pulleys. A top link has spherical rod end bearings, and is essentially a turnbuckle. It is stout enough to take a compressive load from a lighter machine tool countershaft and a cheap and quick means of making a belt tension adjustment.

I turned the actual countershaft from hot rolled A-36 round bar, and used 1 1/4" pillow blocks since the tractor belt pulley hub was bored for something a bit larger (I forget what diameter). I then used a larger diameter V pulley with a taper-lock hub on the end of the countershaft, since a speed at the tight/loose pulleys on the drill press of something like 250 rpm was given in old Barnes information for the drill press.

Another quick and dirty way around making or hunting down a step cone pulley for the countershaft is to use step cone pulleys for V belts. One on the motor, one on the countershaft. The countershaft then has to have a relatively small diameter flat belt pulley belted to the largest step on the lathe's headstock pulley. These older plain bearing lathes were never meant for higher spindle speeds. For a smaller plain beairng lathe like the OP has pictured, a top spindle speed of maybe 800 rpm would be about right.
 
Good advice thus far. My only contribution is to state that 1 hp may be underpowered for a lathe that size. Personally I'd shoot for 5 hp.
 
The OP's lathe looks to be no more than 12" swing judging by the photo. No disrespect to scsmith42, but based on my own experience with a variety of lathes, 5 HP sounds like overkill. My 13" swing LeBlond "roundhead" (geared headstock) lathe has 1 1/2 HP on it and handles whatever heavy jobs (at least for a light-duty geared head lathe) as I run on it. The OP's lathe is a basic 'cone head' lathe, small spindle bore, and not likely to be doing any heavy work. 1 HP belted down thru a countershaft would be more than adequate, particularly if the lathe is run with the back gears 'in'. I've seen 11" South Bend lathes with 1 HP motors, and maybe 1 1/2 or 2 HP on the 13" South Bend lathes. The OP's lathe is not a heavy duty lathe for its size. For a home shop lathe of this size and design, running high speed steel cutting tools, 1 HP will do just fine.
 
Thanks everyone for the advice. You have given me a good place to start with this. I'll post updates as I get it more set up, but it will probably take me some time.
I'd be curious to know if anyone has any ideas on the age and/or make of the lathe. It's only a 9" swing.
 
The OP's lathe looks to be no more than 12" swing judging by the photo. No disrespect to scsmith42, but based on my own experience with a variety of lathes, 5 HP sounds like overkill. My 13" swing LeBlond "roundhead" (geared headstock) lathe has 1 1/2 HP on it and handles whatever heavy jobs (at least for a light-duty geared head lathe) as I run on it. The OP's lathe is a basic 'cone head' lathe, small spindle bore, and not likely to be doing any heavy work. 1 HP belted down thru a countershaft would be more than adequate, particularly if the lathe is run with the back gears 'in'. I've seen 11" South Bend lathes with 1 HP motors, and maybe 1 1/2 or 2 HP on the 13" South Bend lathes. The OP's lathe is not a heavy duty lathe for its size. For a home shop lathe of this size and design, running high speed steel cutting tools, 1 HP will do just fine.
Good advice. From the pix I was thinking that it was larger than that.
 
What you are really after is for somebody here to say, I live close to you in East IshKabbible and have a surplus countershaft that's just in the way and I keep tripping on it so I really want to get rid of it.

You *do* live in East Ishkabbible, right?
 
Thanks, but no thanks. I just wanted to make sure that if I went out and spent more on a countershaft than I initially did on the lathe that I wouldn't be wasting my money. I actually like Joe Michaels ideas on constructing my own as it might help with some of the other setup I was planning on.
 
48Doc:

Thanks for your appreciation of my idea. I do not know how much you spent on the lathe, nor do I know what your capabilities for steel fabrication are, aside from the big question of: "how much time do you want to spend/have available for getting the lathe ready to run ? "

The most recent countershaft I built was a kind of "built on the fly". I made a steel skid base for the camelback drill (top heavy machine), with enough space for mounting a countershaft. Once the drill was mounted on the skid base, I then took some dimensions for what would work for the countershaft structure. I shopped on ebay for the pillow block bearings and got the big (14" diameter, I think) vee pulley from "Surplus Center" in Lincoln, Nebraska. The skid base and countershaft structure were fabricated out of hollow square and hollow rectangular structural steel tubing ( all 3/16" wall), flat bar, and 2" x 2" steel angle. Some was scrap or leftovers from previous jobs, some was steel I ordered new from the local steel supplier. I have my own little design features when I build these sorts of things. I like to make tapped pads on the square structural tubing to mount the pillow blocks and motor rails (for tensioning the vee belt to the countershaft). I weld 3/8" thick x 2" wide A36 (structural steel grade) flatbar to the hollow tube using stitch welds. Stitch welds are plenty adequate for strength, and there is less distortion from the welding. No need to run continuous welds as these would tend to warp things. I am a product of the times I 'came up in', so about 99 % of the welding I do in my own shop is stick welding (SMAW), DC, using either E 6010 or E 7018. I like the old E 6010 (a 'fast freeze/digging' electrode) as it is great for tying in a root pass or 'keyholing" to really 'burn in' a root pass. I did buy a new WEG 3/4 HP farm duty motor for this drill. The countershaft itself was turned from 1 1/2" diameter hot rolled A36 steel round bar.
I generally avoid using cold rolled steel. If I am going to be turning different diameters, why pay for something finished to a diameter I do not need ? If I am milling keyways (assymetrical features or discontinuities), cold rolled steel has a nasty habit of warping. Machining deep into cold rolled steel releases 'locked in stresses', and post machining warpage is a common occurance. A 36 steel is a bit stronger, and being hot rolled, has less locked in stresses.

The countershaft flat belt pulley needed to be wide enough for a 2" wide flat belt to move on/off the tight and loose pulleys on the drill's bottom shaft. I found an old tractor belt pulley (maybe off an old Case tractor). It is the right diameter and about 6" wide. I machined the countershaft, milled the keyways in it, and mounted the pulley on it with a well-fitted shaft key. Used the countershaft as the mandrel to turn the pulley in my LeBlond lathe. Took a skim cut to get rid of the crown on the pulley, since the belt will be shifted along this pulley when going from tight to loose pulley or vice-versa.

The beauty of wood pulleys is they can be made with materials at hand. The old backwoods trick is to use a sprocket with a keyed bore bolted to the wood cone pulley. This gives a steel hub, and through bolts pull the wood cone pulley tight together with the face of the sprocket. You can use a smaller sprocket with the same shaft bore on the small end, and through bolt with tie-rods (pieces of round steel rod threaded at each end for nuts). This gives you a steel hub at each end of the wooden cone pulley. Assembling the rough/oversized pulley on the countershaft, it can be turned to finished diameters using not only the countershaft as the mandrel, but the countershaft frame and motor drive to turn it. Freehand turning with a sharp wood chisel (if you do not have proper wood turning tools) on the pulley can be done using the assembled countershaft as its own wood turning lathe. A narrow wood turning tool to turn the steps of the cone pulley to required diameters and work some crowning onto them, and finishing with sandpaper as the pulley is turning will give a good end result.

I have a "Lux" band cutoff saw in my home shop. It was a yard sale find years ago. Made in Taiwan, a light duty machine. When I bought it over 25 years ago, I figured it might last a few years and I'd get a heavier/larger capacity band cutoff saw. That little saw, with a new motor along the way, has been soldiering on and cut a lot of steel and other metals. An angle grinder, DC stick welder (I use an engine driven old Lincoln welder which lets me run the E 6010), and a drill press are the basic tools. A vertical milling machine to put in keyways and mill slotted holes to allow belt tension adjustments, or to mill welded bolting pads flat and into the same plane is something I am fortunate to have.

I like the old stick welding as I can run it any position, no shielding gas needed, and working outdoors if there is a bit of wind, no worries about losing the shielding gas envelope.No wire feeder to worry about 'birds nesting', simple as can be to setup and run with. I also like stick as I can really 'burn it in', particularly when running weld on structural tube. The structural steel tube, with radius'd corners, creates what is called a 'flaring bevel weld'. A bit more tricky to get the root pass to penetrate and tie in due to the geometry created by the radius'd corners. With stick welding, I run a good root pass and with a little 'weave', I can fill that flare bevel neatly. I am fortunate in that over my career, I was around a lot of welding done by the heavy construction trades and in powerplant maintenance work. As a young and green engineer 50 years ago, I was anxious to learn, and the pipefitters, boilermakers, and ironworkers were happy to teach me the practical ends of the business. In time, I became an American Welding Society Certified Welding Inspector, so tend to be tougher on myself than I might be on someone whose work I was inspecting. I inspect my own work as if I were to be inspected by some of the men I worked with over the years, really fine craftsmen. Similarly, when I do machine work, I use that same standard.

As a Professional Engineer, when I dream up something like a countershaft structure, I look at as I would look at any engineering project. Run a few calculations to be sure things will hold together and not buckle or deform (though I always over-design), think in terms of building it and erecting whatever it is by my lonesome, no extra pairs of hands, and think in terms of maintainability in the future.

I remember on my first powerplant project site, fresh out of engineering school, one of the pipefitters seeing me working hard to take field measurements and come up with some design for runs of welded piping and supports, kidded me. He said: "No worries, kid.... it's carbon steel... if you don't get it right, we can burn it out, clean things up with a grinder, and weld 'er back together a time or two until you git 'er done right..." I remembered that kidding remark. I also remember the pipefitter foreman. He was a kindly man with a son who was an apprentice on that job. He looked after me as well. I had designed some structural steel pipe supports for 12" diameter piping. Figured bending moments and all the rest of it, shear in welds, and had made my drawings. Handed them off to the pipefitter foreman. He looked at me and said: "Joe-boy, gonna show you something.... don't get mad... your design is good... now watch..." He took the safety cap from an oxygen bottle and used it as a template. He took his soapstone and draw a radius with it on an exposed corner on a piece of wideflange steel beam section of one of the pipe supports. One of the pipefitters took the striker hanging on his belt (on a clip made from 1/8" E 7018 with flux beat off it), lit a cutting torch, and burned off the square corner to create a radius'd corner. He then slicked it off with an angle grinder. "Looks a lot nicer, don't it ? Now nobody's gonna find that corner the hard way and cuss the SOB who designed it..." I thanked the pipefitter foreman and he gave me a wink and a pat on my shoulder. It is a lesson which I never forgot. Any steel I designed with exposed corners that could nail a person walking or working around it get radius'd. When I build a countershaft structure for my own shop, I radius exposed corners on the steel work. Makes a nicer looking job, and if I am folded in and around the countershaft to oil a bearing on the lower shaft of the drill or get the flat belt onto the pulleys, I am not going to get hurt if I bump into those corners.

50 + years in this work, maybe I am old fashioned in still using stick welding and making drawings and sketches with pen and paper and then taking measurements and making more sketches or 'cut and try' rather than using some software. The striker for lighting my cutting torch is on a belt clip made of E 7018 for me by one of the pipefitters on my first job, 50 years ago. My stainless steel thermos has a handle made of 3/8" diameter stainless steel instrument tubing, held on with hose clamps, made on that same job. Those were the times I came up in, and something like designing and building a countershaft and base skid the way I do it is a product of that experience.
 
"wanted to make sure that if I went out and spent more on a countershaft than I initially did on the lathe that I wouldn't be wasting my money..."

Um, not the point. What's desired here is for you to locate somebody within driving distance who has a countershaft they want to get rid of. Guys here, would rather see one get put to use rather than gathering dust and chips in the shop.
 
4BDoc

+1 for bolted together wood pulleys as Joe suggests. Has worked well for several folk I know altho' I used slices of alloy for the ones I've made. Back in the day I used through bolts to hold the slices together and a couple of grubscrews onto the shaft. Having gotten older and lazier whilst things have, relatively speaking, become cheaper nowadays I'd use a taper lock flange to connect pulleys to shaft.

The easiest "quick'n dirty" countershaft assembly I ever saw was based on a length of scaffold plank (inch or so thick, foot wide and up to 12 ft long in UK) hinged off the floor behind the lathe leaning back a bit so the belt tension could be adjusted without things flopping forwards.

Step pulley ran in a pair of pillow block / plummer block bearings bolted close to the top at the right height for the belt to meet the lathe spindle pulley without eating the back gear shaft. U shape cut out for the step pulley. Spring thing to tension the belt. Owner just pulled it towards lathe to release the tension enough to ease the belt between steps. I'd propably have gone all fancy with a handle reaching out to my side of the machine to amke life easier.

Motor hung below countershaft on a plate hinged off the plank. Double pulley to give a two speed drive. On that one I think the weight of the motor gave enough belt tension. If it needs a bit more pull add a bungee strap or lump of scrap, spare bricks, broken concrete block or whatever.

Temporary job done several years before I saw it.

Nowt so permanent as a temporary job!

Clive
 
I see the OP has a table (circular woodworking) saw in the background of the photo of the lathe. As Clive 603 notes, a countershaft frame can be made of wood.
With a table saw and some lumber, a wooden countershaft frame could be built. Using the table saw to cut 'rabbet joints' or 'dado joints' can be done to make a very solid frame with no movement or swaying. Bolts thru these joints insure a very rigid frame. Plenty of old mills and shops were wood framed and had miles of line shafting and countershafts hung off that wood framing. Some lumber, carriage bolts, and the table saw could be put to making a very serviceable and not bad looking countershaft frame. Working with what is readily at hand, particularly when cash outlay might be tight, and working to produce parts that are not 'off the shelf' (such as flat belt step cone pulleys) are the challenges faced by many home shop people. The other name of the game (at least in my book) is to get machine tools in my shop up and running. My shop is hardly a museum, and I run jobs on my machine tools. I am not going for 'classic restorations' or 'period correctness'. If I weld a countershaft frame together and use ball bearing pillow blocks, it is definitely NOT in keeping with the era some of my old machine tools were built. Two sayings come to mind: "Necessity is the mother of invention" and "play the hand you're dealt" (meaning work with what you have on hand and don't waste time bitching and moaning about what you don't have, claiming you can't get a job done). In short, look around at what's at hand or in easy reach, and git 'er done. If it means using old auto or truck parts, farm machinery parts, wood framing, turned-in-place wood pulleys, or steel salvaged from something scrapped, go for it. It is a nice game to play, using one's imagination and working with what's at hand to make projects happen and work correctly.
 
If I had a boat I wouldn't use that for a mooring.

If you really want to play with it, get a Fairbanks Morse one lunger make and break to belt up to it.

Polish and paint it all pretty with pin stripes.

Bolt the whole works on a nice flatbed trailer with the same paint color scheme.

Take it to antique machinery meets.

You will have way more fun with it, meet people like yourself, and sooner or later someone will buy it from you.
 








 
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