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Need some help rigid tapping titanium

Mr.Chipeater

Plastic
Joined
Apr 20, 2021
Hey everybody

I'm working on a job that has a few #10-24 blind threaded holes 0.4" deep and getting my butt absolutely kicked by the tapping.

I've tried using OSG EXOPRO XPF(form) and OSG EXOTAP VC-10 (cut) taps which are specifically made for titanium and I'm only getting 5-7 holes a tap. OSG says I should be getting 100-150.

I'm running the tap at 10 SFM (200 rpm) with liberal amounts of Hangsterfer's Hard-cut 5125-UB tapping oil. OSG recommends 5-15 sfm

I drill the hole with a HSS drill at 25 SFM 0.0025 IPR and am targeting 65% thread (verified with pins)

The drilling is going beautifully as it drills right to size and shows no sign of dulling the drill or work hardening the material. The roll form tap drives just fine but as soon as it retracts, it starts squawking and generating a lot of smoke. The cut tap doesn't generate as much smoke or squawk but still breaks on me. Both taps do feel quite warm after tapping a hole. I am running them in a compression head on a UMC750 and keeping them 0.05-0.070" from the hole bottom.

I can run the taps by hand without too much trouble except the form tap does like to stick.

I feel like it shouldn't be this hard and ready to pull all my hair out but before I do that, I'm hoping someone might have a few insights into what might be going wrong.
 

Booze Daily

Titanium
Joined
Sep 18, 2015
Location
Ohio
10-24 is the stupidest thread ever invented.
I’ve had problems tapping titanium and I ended up thread milling.
 

cgrim3

Cast Iron
Joined
Dec 4, 2020
Location
Baltimore
Ditch the OSG taps and buy Emuge. Call your Emuge rep and tell him your situation and buy what he recommends. He will most likely recommend one of their spiral flute taps for titanium

We tap titanium all the time and it's nothing for us to do greater than 500 holes with one tap.

Ti-Taps | Emuge Corporation

As a disclaimer, I do not work for them and do not sell them. Just a happy customer.

They cost a pretty penny but are worth it in the long run
 

Mr.Chipeater

Plastic
Joined
Apr 20, 2021
Ditch the OSG taps and buy Emuge. Call your Emuge rep and tell him your situation and buy what he recommends. He will most likely recommend one of their spiral flute taps for titanium

We tap titanium all the time and it's nothing for us to do greater than 500 holes with one tap.

Ti-Taps | Emuge Corporation

As a disclaimer, I do not work for them and do not sell them. Just a happy customer.

They cost a pretty penny but are worth it in the long run

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll buy a few to try out.

Looked them up on MSC and they're not that much more than the OSG. Both brands are advertised almost the exact same way too for titanium. I don't doubt they're a better tap but I'm wondering if there isn't more wrong with my process as I can't see just a different brand letting me go from 5 to 500 holes.
 

Mr.Chipeater

Plastic
Joined
Apr 20, 2021
Ditch the OSG taps and buy Emuge. Call your Emuge rep and tell him your situation and buy what he recommends. He will most likely recommend one of their spiral flute taps for titanium

We tap titanium all the time and it's nothing for us to do greater than 500 holes with one tap.

Thought of another question. Is that with special tapping oil or just straight machine coolant?

I'm wondering if the viscous tapping oil is letting chips pack in the tap which is leading it to break but I also don't want to blow up a tap just to test it with only coolant.
 

tc227

Aluminum
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Hey everybody

I'm working on a job that has a few #10-24 blind threaded holes 0.4" deep and getting my butt absolutely kicked by the tapping.

I've tried using OSG EXOPRO XPF(form) and OSG EXOTAP VC-10 (cut) taps which are specifically made for titanium and I'm only getting 5-7 holes a tap. OSG says I should be getting 100-150.

I'm running the tap at 10 SFM (200 rpm) with liberal amounts of Hangsterfer's Hard-cut 5125-UB tapping oil. OSG recommends 5-15 sfm

I drill the hole with a HSS drill at 25 SFM 0.0025 IPR and am targeting 65% thread (verified with pins)

The drilling is going beautifully as it drills right to size and shows no sign of dulling the drill or work hardening the material. The roll form tap drives just fine but as soon as it retracts, it starts squawking and generating a lot of smoke. The cut tap doesn't generate as much smoke or squawk but still breaks on me. Both taps do feel quite warm after tapping a hole. I am running them in a compression head on a UMC750 and keeping them 0.05-0.070" from the hole bottom.

I can run the taps by hand without too much trouble except the form tap does like to stick.

I feel like it shouldn't be this hard and ready to pull all my hair out but before I do that, I'm hoping someone might have a few insights into what might be going wrong.

Maybe increase RPM to 300-400 sometimes the spindle just can't talk right to the Z axis motor going that slow.Things these days are made to go faster and smoother.
I had a TM-1 and it would break taps going slow (under 300 RPM) upped the RPM never had any trouble again.
 

Bobw

Diamond
Joined
Feb 8, 2005
Location
Hatch, NM Chile capital of the WORLD
Maybe increase RPM to 300-400 sometimes the spindle just can't talk right to the Z axis motor going that slow.Things these days are made to go faster and smoother.
I had a TM-1 and it would break taps going slow (under 300 RPM) upped the RPM never had any trouble again.

Weird how that works sometimes. But yeah, low revs (REALLY LOW FREQUENCY) can mess with things.


I don't know if this is a thing or not, but your RPMs leave the feed at a never ending decimal. I always
try and make my feed at worse a xx.5. So a 24 pitch, I would run at 240 rpms and 10ipm, or 180 and 7.5. 200rpms lands you
at 8.33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333... Etc. Inches per minute.

Have you tried a floating holder? Either a full floating one, or they do sell rigid tapping holders
that have a little "give" to them. Not a lot, like .005 or .008 or something, I saw an ad in MMS once.
Still rigid tapping but it had just that little bit of give, just in case.

Personally, depending on qty and dollars to part to scrap ratio, I'd probably just start them
on the machine, and finish 'em out by hand.

Ti is weird, it likes aluminum geometry, but it beats it up. It likes to squeeze things that
you stick in it (and not in a good way). Even when your tool is perfect, it still takes
a lot of pressure to cut, and it doesn't like getting rid of heat, but is effected by it.

Ti just kind of sucks. But its pretty and light.

And 10-24 is a shit thread. Is this a "Written In Stone" part, or is it something that you could
talk to your customer and get it changed to a 10-32? That would make your life a LOT easier.
 

Rstewart

Stainless
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Location
Huntsville Alabama
Ditch the OSG taps and buy Emuge. Call your Emuge rep and tell him your situation and buy what he recommends. He will most likely recommend one of their spiral flute taps for titanium

We tap titanium all the time and it's nothing for us to do greater than 500 holes with one tap.

Ti-Taps | Emuge Corporation

As a disclaimer, I do not work for them and do not sell them. Just a happy customer.

They cost a pretty penny but are worth it in the long run


I'll second Emuge, that's all I buy now, whether it be for Aluminum or the exotic materials.
 

MaxPrairie

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
I would also say thread mill with such a shallow hole in titanium. At least if it does break you aren’t scrapping a part. Honestly have tried emuge but really regretted buying them. Then started using walter taps and love them. Was there something I missed with emuge? We tap 1/4-20 1” deep with walter taps in 303 stainless. Emuge never lasted long in stainless.
 

Mr.Chipeater

Plastic
Joined
Apr 20, 2021
I started out running the taps faster by a couple hundred rpm but they would literally start smoking from the heat generated so I slowed them down.

I am also running them in a compression head which should allow the tap to float enough even if the machine isn't synchronized perfectly.

I'm inclined to just buy a bunch of thread mills and be done with it but I'd still like to know why it seems others can get 500+ holes to a tap and the best I've gotten is 22.
 

dodgin

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Location
MI, USA
Yeah...don't tap those holes. Check out the MTS and MTSH lineup that Carmex has. Top to bottom thread milling, one pass to full diameter and a spring pass, done.
 

D Nelson

Stainless
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Location
Missouri Ida
Yeah...don't tap those holes. Check out the MTS and MTSH lineup that Carmex has. Top to bottom thread milling, one pass to full diameter and a spring pass, done.

I agree that’s the way to tap them holes
Don


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

cgrim3

Cast Iron
Joined
Dec 4, 2020
Location
Baltimore
Thought of another question. Is that with special tapping oil or just straight machine coolant?

I'm wondering if the viscous tapping oil is letting chips pack in the tap which is leading it to break but I also don't want to blow up a tap just to test it with only coolant.

We use the emuge tapping fluid.
 

cgrim3

Cast Iron
Joined
Dec 4, 2020
Location
Baltimore
I would also say thread mill with such a shallow hole in titanium. At least if it does break you aren’t scrapping a part. Honestly have tried emuge but really regretted buying them. Then started using walter taps and love them. Was there something I missed with emuge? We tap 1/4-20 1” deep with walter taps in 303 stainless. Emuge never lasted long in stainless.

We tap 316 and 303 stainless all the time. We use a combination of OSG and emuge and they both perform good for stainless, at least for us. We typically have no problem. For titanium though, it is only emuge taps or carmex thread mills.

In our experience, we typically tap a little slower. The emuge guy will have the latest specs on the feeds and speeds though but sometimes I feel like they inflate the speed and feed numbers just to try to bump up their sales but idk
 

Rstewart

Stainless
Joined
Jun 14, 2006
Location
Huntsville Alabama
I would also say thread mill with such a shallow hole in titanium. At least if it does break you aren’t scrapping a part. Honestly have tried emuge but really regretted buying them. Then started using walter taps and love them. Was there something I missed with emuge? We tap 1/4-20 1” deep with walter taps in 303 stainless. Emuge never lasted long in stainless.

303? That's almost not stainless. Sorry not being a smartass but I feel like accupro would last in 303. You're not wrong that Walter is good stuff as well, but I slightly prefer Emuge
 

MaxPrairie

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jul 9, 2015
303? That's almost not stainless. Sorry not being a smartass but I feel like accupro would last in 303. You're not wrong that Walter is good stuff as well, but I slightly prefer Emuge

Reply with the specs of the emuge tap you use. We did 600 holes 1” deep with one walter tap and back the the drawer at the end of the job. 303 or not, that is respectable.
 

Mr.Chipeater

Plastic
Joined
Apr 20, 2021
I didn't see anything about a drill size?

Drilled the holes for 65% thread which is the most I could do while still being in spec. Hole size was also verified with pins before tapping.


Wanted to close out the thread with saying that I ended up thread milling all the holes and it worked out beautifully. One thread mill lasted the entire run (150 holes) and still looks new. I still believe tapping shouldn't have been an issue but I don't think I'll ever try tapping titanium again just to avoid the headache.

Thanks for everyone's input on this!
 








 
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