New----HAAS tooling??

[mhajicek]

Not to derail the topic, but looking at their end mill holders on that page, does Haas not have a dual contact spindle on any of their mills?

I don't think they do. They recently added an HSK option though.

 

[Ashg]

I decided what the heck lets find out if its shit or not. Dropped 2k for the 20piece tsc kit and 2 each of all the ali end mills up to 1/2inch. they had %10 off yesterday so figured what the heck pricing is very competitive for 20 holders 3 sets of collets and 12 end mills. if i decide i don't like them i'm sure i can move them on easy as they have the HAAS logo on them.

the big downside i found is they don't have anyone available on the phone that you can call to talk to about the tooling, yesterday i tried to call and talk to someone and its like they launched it and didn't train or tell anyone at head office or the local distributor. Spoke to several different people and they were all oblivious to what was going on, one guy their phone system put me through to was a service spares guy, he was completely un aware about the launch and i could hardly hear him over the 3-4 barking dogs in the background.

when it comes to tooling it lives or dies with the rep as far as i'm concerned. You can have the best tooling on the market but if there isn't a good rep/tech support behind it your going to fail. simple things like a finish issue with a specific tool, you call the rep and they say don't use that tool for that, i will bring/send you a better one for that job to try out, that's what keeps me a loyal customer.

 

[Bobw]

Are those little brief cases for the collets?

Thats "So Cute". I want one. I don't want
the collets. I just want the case.

 

[macds]

Are those little brief cases for the collets?

Thats "So Cute". I want one. I don't want
the collets. I just want the case.

That little suitcase would be perfect for packing all my worldly posessions into when I pack in the machining gig, and open my hotdog cart

 

[Ashg]

lol your welcome to them little boxes, in fact, nope i want a pack of hotdogs in exchange

I don't even own a single haas, and have never ran one in a shop environment so I'm probably not qualified to comment. BUT..... Every now and then i go to a dealer day for a free lunch and to socialize with like minded people in my area. When i look at their offerings, i think they have a pretty neat control but the parts they run on the demo days never seem to have that good of a finish or even repeatability in finish, ali or steel.

Even the umc750 i looked at last time was churning out 5 axis haas logos and the finish was very much sub par. They really seem to struggle with chamfer finish quality, the vf2ss was putting out worse parts than the cheaper vf2 also and cycle times were not that far apart in the cut (i stood and counted lol) rapids were faster obviously. I don't know if its the program, the tooling or the machine but i have never seen a part come off a haas and said woah look at the finish on that. its probably ok to most, maybe i'm just fussy? If i was the dealer and running a demo day id bury hours into perfecting those demo run parts until they come out perfect, what worries me is maybe they have done that and that's the best they can do.

At the end of the day i was intrigued by all the marketing hype and i just wanted see what they were like, cant go to the dealer hold it an go yep or nope so had to bite the bullet. I checked if could return them before i ordered that's why i dicked around trying to call them first :-)


a little about me and my thought process as i don't post on here much.

generally as a rule i don't buy the Chinese tools as its too hit and miss,,, mainly miss. i just don't have time to mess about with bad tools and doing their qc for them. I just want to open the box put it in the machine and run it until its worn out. If haas is getting them from china and doing proper quality control then maybe thats ok, i'm not sure 100% how i feel about that as id rather buy from us/europe. Im European born and live in the us, i like to support industry in my home countries, but ultimately i buy based on quality/performance not origin. i will admit to having a fair bit of Japanese stuff and some Chinese stuff too (china is harder to avoid than you think if that's your mo). Where haas is getting them from is still unknown so until i have them in my hot sticky palms its all just speculation. Rumor is its kennametal, i have some of those, some parlec, mari and seco(used to work for them 18 years ago) so i can compare with what i have.

i will take pictures and check the run out etc when they show up, run some of the cutters on known programs. If they are ok then its not a bad deal, if they are shit they can go back get sold or whatever. I only have one cat40 machine and the spindle is out for a rebuild/regrind right now so it should be dead nuts when it comes back to test these tool holders for run out. My tool changer bearings were shot and that killed the taper in the spindle, so i figured best replace the worst holders too and haas come along offering 10% off because they didn't have a lemonade and a free sandwich for me this year.

i dont dislike haas they have a solid place in the market and are excellent at promoting the industry, bringing in new blood and educating the machinists of tomorrow. but i wont hold back if they send me a box of crap.

 

[david n]

Definitely Kennametal KenTip drills and inserts.........................I have the exact drill on the shelf. The "Haas" drill is a few bucks cheaper than MSC.............................


https://www.haascnc.com/content/dam..._content/renditions/cq5dam.web.1280.1280.jpeg

 

[RCS Machine]

Not impressed. Went to buy CAT 40 pull studs. No way am I paying $24 shipping when the headline on the webpage states free shipping on orders over $99.00. These were $99.95. Get that fixed and a way to give them my sales tax number and maybe I'll think about it again.

 

[mmurray70]

Their endmills are a good price. No shipping to Canada though so I guess I wont be trying them.

 

[winger]

Didn't the video claim that these tools were used in their production shop?

Dave

 

[Shop Supply Guru]

Bump, bump. Any guinea pigs out there?

Haas just did their tooling demo yesterday. Has anyone had a chance to play with their stuff?
Now I see they have replaceable tip drills too. I'm suspicious they are rebranding someone else's drills (see link below).
Problem is, their price is $200 for a 5xD 1/2" body. I can get an Iscar for $250. I think that's a no go for me.......
HAAS DRILL HEAD, 33/64" DIAMETER, SEAT SIZE 20, PM25 GRADE

Their solid carbide seems to be pretty cheap though.....

That steel body is pretty clearly the ISCAR/ Ingersoll (Taegutec) / Tungaloy design or Kennametal design. In case anyone doesn’t know they are all part ( the first three not Kennametal) of the IMC group a company owned by Berkshire Hathaway ( owned by Warren Buffet). The drill tip itself is made in Germany. That kind of makes me think it’s Kennametal grinding them in Germany as a lot of their drills are ground there.

I saw a comment about wouldn’t it be illegal to rebrand. Not if they contract with the actual manufacturer and throw a big fat check at them which Haas of course could do. The majority of big name manufacturers contract with each other. The bigger they are the more often they do it. Like Sandvik I know does it for a lot of things. They come up with their own design or put a twist on the original manufacturer design create a part number system not easily traced and voila a brand new series of tools are on the market or so the average consumer thinks. Just like big shops they keep the big money makers and proprietary stuff in house and ship out commodity stuff to a manufacturer you’ve never heard or mid sized competitors that they don’t really view as competitors. In some cases a mid-level competitor figures out a coating technology and kicks the top dog out of the park. I know one example of that where this happened and the top manufacturer in the market paid millions for the coating technology. The original company turned that into a lot of new machinery expanding their capabilities. Win win.

 

[garychipmaker]

I bought 2 plastic case that had 20 holes for ER collets on EBAY 12-08-2019 for
$9.98 each. I wanted to buy 2 more now and the same case is 24.99

 

[NAST555]

That steel body is pretty clearly the ISCAR/ Ingersoll (Taegutec) / Tungaloy design or Kennametal design. In case anyone doesn’t know they are all part ( the first three not Kennametal) of the IMC group a company owned by Berkshire Hathaway ( owned by Warren Buffet). The drill tip itself is made in Germany. That kind of makes me think it’s Kennametal grinding them in Germany as a lot of their drills are ground there.

I saw a comment about wouldn’t it be illegal to rebrand. Not if they contract with the actual manufacturer and throw a big fat check at them which Haas of course could do. The majority of big name manufacturers contract with each other. The bigger they are the more often they do it. Like Sandvik I know does it for a lot of things. They come up with their own design or put a twist on the original manufacturer design create a part number system not easily traced and voila a brand new series of tools are on the market or so the average consumer thinks. Just like big shops they keep the big money makers and proprietary stuff in house and ship out commodity stuff to a manufacturer you’ve never heard or mid sized competitors that they don’t really view as competitors. In some cases a mid-level competitor figures out a coating technology and kicks the top dog out of the park. I know one example of that where this happened and the top manufacturer in the market paid millions for the coating technology. The original company turned that into a lot of new machinery expanding their capabilities. Win win.

I know that you are quite educated on it so I will just ask.
A Widia agent told me that their threading inserts are Vargus and that there is some sort of agreement that Widia supplies the carbide, for thread turning, to them and Widia get's supplied the inserts?
I have never bought Widia branded threading inserts but Vargus are brilliant, right up there or even better than Mitsubishi threading inserts.

 

[Shop Supply Guru]

I know that you are quite educated on it so I will just ask.
A Widia agent told me that their threading inserts are Vargus and that there is some sort of agreement that Widia supplies the carbide, for thread turning, to them and Widia get's supplied the inserts?
I have never bought Widia branded threading inserts but Vargus are brilliant, right up there or even better than Mitsubishi threading inserts.

Threading inserts are definitely one of the items subcontracted with a certain few. I know a US fabricator ( a name very few would know and I won't share) out of Michigan that makes millions of dollars worth of threading inserts for some big names. You can't just call the fabricator and order a pack though. They play in order's of 25k to 300k. Also threading inserts for the most part are very standard. Obviously the thread geometry doesn't change but you can get ones with no chipbreaker, ground chipbreaker or molded chipbreaker. So it wouldn't surprise me if Widia (who is owned by Kennametal) is having their inserts made by Vargus. Vargus, Carmex, and Iscar are all companies who manufacture in Israel and I would say they are the best brands out on the market for threading inserts. Take a look next time at your pack of threading inserts from any brand and see if they are made in Israel.

 

[ChipSplitter]

Threading inserts are definitely one of the items subcontracted with a certain few. I know a US fabricator ( a name very few would know and I won't share) out of Michigan that makes millions of dollars worth of threading inserts for some big names. You can't just call the fabricator and order a pack though. They play in order's of 25k to 300k. Also threading inserts for the most part are very standard. Obviously the thread geometry doesn't change but you can get ones with no chipbreaker, ground chipbreaker or molded chipbreaker. So it wouldn't surprise me if Widia (who is owned by Kennametal) is having their inserts made by Vargus. Vargus, Carmex, and Iscar are all companies who manufacture in Israel and I would say they are the best brands out on the market for threading inserts. Take a look next time at your pack of threading inserts from any brand and see if they are made in Israel.

It's almost a mafia thing.
Iscar won't tell you about their relationship to Carmex and Vargus, but an ex-Iscar rep told me he's positive all the threading inserts from Israel are made in the same building.
Some of the Carmex and Iscar numbers are even interchangeable......

 

[NAST555]

Threading inserts are definitely one of the items subcontracted with a certain few. I know a US fabricator ( a name very few would know and I won't share) out of Michigan that makes millions of dollars worth of threading inserts for some big names. You can't just call the fabricator and order a pack though. They play in order's of 25k to 300k. Also threading inserts for the most part are very standard. Obviously the thread geometry doesn't change but you can get ones with no chipbreaker, ground chipbreaker or molded chipbreaker. So it wouldn't surprise me if Widia (who is owned by Kennametal) is having their inserts made by Vargus. Vargus, Carmex, and Iscar are all companies who manufacture in Israel and I would say they are the best brands out on the market for threading inserts. Take a look next time at your pack of threading inserts from any brand and see if they are made in Israel.

It is weird though, I only used to run Iscar till someone told me that there are better threading inserts.
Maybe I am just ordering wrong but it looks like Iscar does not "chip" or run as well as others that I have used.
I had a M20 long run job, ran out of Vargus and Mits inserts (full form), but had Iscar one's on hand. It was night and day difference. The Iscar chattered like crazy, half the tool life and horrible finish. Same programs, same machines. The Vargus probably was the best but the Mits seemed to handle the chip breaking better.
From memory I don't know what it was but I"m pretty sure that the Mits had a molded chipbreaker and the Vargus ground.

 

[wrustle]

The tooling is re-branded Kennametal for sure.

I just had our Haas regional sales guy in my shop this morning picking up a check for a new machine shipping next week and I asked him all about the tooling and their source, and he confirmed it.

The prices are very attractive and given the fact I've been buying Walter tooling for the last several years, I'm looking forward to saving a lot of money. I really like the fact I can buy an inserted drill body and only have to buy a 5 pack of the inner and outer inserts, instead of a 10 pack of each.......which would probably last me five years since all we mostly do is aluminum.

Later,
Russ​

 

[david n]

Russ....................you still runnin' that Samsung(? I canna remember what it was) mill too? Or is another Haas replacin' it?

 

[wrustle]

Russ....................you still runnin' that Samsung(? I canna remember what it was) mill too? Or is another Haas replacin' it?

Hi Dave,

I got rid of that Samsung a couple years ago, what a POS! Nothing but one problem after another..............

Later,
Russ

 

[Ashg]

Just thought i would update this. All the tooling turned up, they forgot one of the tool holders out of the 20 piece kit, sent them an email and they next day shipped it to me, haas customer service were helpful via email.

tool holders are pretty nice for the price balanced to g2.5 20-25krpm finish on the taper and er chuck taper is very good (mirror finish, better than the parlec equiv to mari), TIR is under 0.0002" on the few i have measured so far. it does appear that the holders are manufactured in china, well the plastic boxes they come in say made in china on the bottom, not sure if that's just the plastic box or the holder too, im gonna assume both.

the un-coated carbide cutters are made in Israel, good finish seem to cut well, think i still prefer helical but at half the price they are good value for money. they were all consistently -0.0002 undersized on the shank, compared to the 3 flute helical cutters i normally use on Ali which are typically around -0.00005 undersized its not an issue if your put it into your cam package properly. well unless your using heat shrink tooling, you may get pull out with these haas cutters.

all in all i think they are ok, are they the best out there on the market, probably not but they are not bad value and the pricing is attractive, and even though they are foreign made having haas behind them should mean they are hopefully getting some kind of quality check before they go out.

as for will i buy any more? well i'm undecided. i will see how they run for a while before i make any kind of statement on that.

few pics
high res here HAAS TOOLING - Google Photos

 

[Ashg]

parlec left haas right


cutters