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New Haas UMC 350 Models Coming Out Soon

NLan07

Plastic
Joined
Dec 27, 2021
Hey everyone!

I was just on the Haas Automation website comparing their 5-axis machines to other companies' offerings and I stumbled across this website link that didn't show up on their directory. Looks like Haas is about to roll out a few new, smaller versions of the UMC 500 which it looks like is meant to compete in the Brother, small/compact 5-axis market. So far I've found pages for two new machines: The UMC 350SS with a 30 Taper spindle, with the same size as the DT-1, and the UMC 350HD with a 40 Taper spindle, basically the DM-1 comparable machine.

Haas UMC 350SS:

"The UMC-350SS combines the speed and performance of our DT-1 Drill/Tap Center with the high-speed indexing of our TRT100 dual-axis rotary to create a high-speed, lean-style UMC that’s perfect for 3+2 and simultaneous 5-axis machining of small parts."


Haas UMC 350HD:

"The UMC-350HD combines the 40-taper performance of our DM-1 Drill/Mill Center with the versatility of our TRT210 dual-axis rotary to create a lean-style UMC that’s perfect for 3+2 and simultaneous 5-axis machining of small parts."


It looks like a major difference in these machines compared to the DT-1/DM-1 (besides being 5-axis obviously) is that the X-axis movement is now in the spindle vs the table. Table seems to move in Y, B, and C axes, and the spindle moves in Z and X, unless I'm totally misinterpreting the photos in the website links above.

I'm curious what you guys think. I for one am excited to see how they do! The small DT-1/DM-1 size/footprint will be awesome for automation and packing a lot of spindles into a shop, and the lower price point should be AWESOME at helping a lot of shops get into 5-axis machining. That's probably what I'm most excited about. Considering the travels are smaller (15x14x12 in X,Y, Z respectively for both machines) that should help with the positioning errors/accuracy issues that their bigger brothers (at least as far as I've heard from a lot of you on this forum) seem to struggle with.

*Also, if the HD in the UMC 350HD stands for 'Heavy Duty' then I wonder if Haas is finally going to release a line of Heavy Duty machines that are much heavier/more rigid to compete more with other builders like DN Solutions (Doosan), Okuma, Mazak, etc.
 
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gkoenig

Titanium
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Location
Portland, OR
That configuration makes very little sense to me.

So you get a 100mm platter... and nothing more. That seems like very small table space given the machine travels, so there is a bunch of dead air.

Put a 5 axis trunnion on a 3 axis table and you can use the extra table space for a whole bunch of things. Basic vise work, 2nd ops, stock prep, etc. Better yet - spindle gripper parts and you get an automation solution that costs 1/20th of an external robot, with higher process reliability. Once you see spindle grippers in action, a lot of other small-part automation solutions lose their appeal. Can't do that on a UMC350.

Or actually build a trunion and make it a decent size. Brother is doing this with the U500 - same footprint as the UMC350, but it has a 400mm table and can swing a full 500mm part - almost the same part size as a Haas UMC500, but with all the Speedio goodness, none of the Haas issues, and even a bit less expensive than the UMC500. No full 5 axis, but we all know that isn't really an issue for 95% of users.

The UMC350 is a weird machine, but Haas is going to sell the hell out of them, so none of the technical issues really matter.
 

goooose

Hot Rolled
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Location
canada
The UMC350 is a weird machine, but Haas is going to sell the hell out of them, so none of the technical issues really matter.
If these come in well under 100k, they won't be able to make em fast enough.

They seem to be spending all their resources coming up with new machine models instead of refining the ones they've got. Throw it all at the wall and see what sticks.
Wonder how many units of that mill-turn thing they sold.
 

empower

Titanium
Joined
Sep 8, 2018
Hey everyone!

I was just on the Haas Automation website comparing their 5-axis machines to other companies' offerings and I stumbled across this website link that didn't show up on their directory. Looks like Haas is about to roll out a few new, smaller versions of the UMC 500 which it looks like is meant to compete in the Brother, small/compact 5-axis market. So far I've found pages for two new machines: The UMC 350SS with a 30 Taper spindle, with the same size as the DT-1, and the UMC 350HD with a 40 Taper spindle, basically the DM-1 comparable machine.

Haas UMC 350SS:

"The UMC-350SS combines the speed and performance of our DT-1 Drill/Tap Center with the high-speed indexing of our TRT100 dual-axis rotary to create a high-speed, lean-style UMC that’s perfect for 3+2 and simultaneous 5-axis machining of small parts."


Haas UMC 350HD:

"The UMC-350HD combines the 40-taper performance of our DM-1 Drill/Mill Center with the versatility of our TRT210 dual-axis rotary to create a lean-style UMC that’s perfect for 3+2 and simultaneous 5-axis machining of small parts."


It looks like a major difference in these machines compared to the DT-1/DM-1 (besides being 5-axis obviously) is that the X-axis movement is now in the spindle vs the table. Table seems to move in Y, B, and C axes, and the spindle moves in Z and X, unless I'm totally misinterpreting the photos in the website links above.

I'm curious what you guys think. I for one am excited to see how they do!! The small DT-1/DM-1 size/footprint will be awesome for automation and packing a lot of spindles into a shop, and the lower price point should be AWESOME at helping a lot of shops get into 5-axis machining. That's probably what I'm most excited about. Considering the travels are smaller (15x14x12 in X,Y, Z respectively for both machines) that should help with the positioning errors/accuracy issues that their bigger brothers (at least as far as I've heard from a lot of you on this forum) seem to struggle with. Either way these will definitely be a more affordable option than a Brother or something similar.

*Also, if the HD in the UMC 350HD stands for 'Heavy Duty' then I wonder if Haas is finally going to release a line of Heavy Duty machines that are much heavier/more rigid to compete more with other builders like DN Solutions (Doosan), Okuma, Mazak, etc.
great! another pile of shit.
 

NLan07

Plastic
Joined
Dec 27, 2021
That configuration makes very little sense to me.

So you get a 100mm platter... and nothing more. That seems like very small table space given the machine travels, so there is a bunch of dead air.

Put a 5 axis trunnion on a 3 axis table and you can use the extra table space for a whole bunch of things. Basic vise work, 2nd ops, stock prep, etc. Better yet - spindle gripper parts and you get an automation solution that costs 1/20th of an external robot, with higher process reliability. Once you see spindle grippers in action, a lot of other small-part automation solutions lose their appeal. Can't do that on a UMC350.

Or actually build a trunion and make it a decent size. Brother is doing this with the U500 - same footprint as the UMC350, but it has a 400mm table and can swing a full 500mm part - almost the same part size as a Haas UMC500, but with all the Speedio goodness, none of the Haas issues, and even a bit less expensive than the UMC500. No full 5 axis, but we all know that isn't really an issue for 95% of users.

The UMC350 is a weird machine, but Haas is going to sell the hell out of them, so none of the technical issues really matter.
Oh man..... I missed the platter dimensions the first time around. Yeah, a 3.94" platter on a 15" x 14" X,Y travel machine suuucks. And the TRT100 rotary that the table is based on says it has a weight limit of only 15 lbs. Add fixture weight to that and you're not going to be able to put a very big part in there at all. 'Dead air' for sure.

The platter on the UMC 350HD makes more sense though with a 9.10" platter and a 200 lbs. weight limit. Honestly if they're trying to use similar components to products they already have like their rotaries (which totally makes sense from a business logistics and cost perspective) then they should have gone with at least the TRT210 'base' for both machines, or maybe a bigger platter like the TRT310 with its 12.20" platter size and 275 lbs. weight limit. Much better use of table space/travel. On the one hand I could understand them not wanting to step on their own sales toes by making the platter too close in size to the UMC 500 line, but that platter is just under 20" so that doesn't make much sense to me. At the very least the two machines should have the same rotary, either the TRT210 or TRT310, but the TRT100 sized platter makes no sense.
 

Orange Vise

Stainless
Joined
Feb 10, 2012
Location
California
I'm curious what you guys think. I for one am excited to see how they do!!
The CAT40 version makes sense if it's priced considerably lower than the UMC500.

The BT30 version would be going head to head with a Speedio S700 with a Yukiwa TNT100 tilting rotary, which is blazing fast.
 
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gkoenig

Titanium
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Location
Portland, OR
The CAT40 version makes sense if it's priced considerably lower than the UMC500.

The BT30 version would be going head to head with a Speedio S700 with a Yukiwa TNT100 tilting rotary, which is blazing fast.

And for the price of a KSP Vise and a $1000 spindle gripper from Schunk, that S700 with the TNT100 can run hours of unattended production. And you still have 20" of free table space.
The platter on the UMC 350HD makes more sense though with a 9.10" platter and a 200 lbs. weight limit.

And the tradeoff there is that you step down even further to 18+1 on the tools. In all my discussions with folks about a 5 axis Speedio, the big holdup was 21 tools, which is why I'm glad they figured out how to do a 28 tool turret on the U500 which opens a lot of work up. 18 though? Oofa!
 

NLan07

Plastic
Joined
Dec 27, 2021
And for the price of a KSP Vise and a $1000 spindle gripper from Schunk, that S700 with the TNT100 can run hours of unattended production. And you still have 20" of free table space.
I haven't heard of spindle grippers before. Are they basically like a robot 'hand' that attaches to the spindle instead of an arm and can load parts/raw stock sitting off to the side of the table inside the machine? I'm going to have to check that out.
 

couch

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 10, 2009
Location
Anaheim, California
And for the price of a KSP Vise and a $1000 spindle gripper from Schunk, that S700 with the TNT100 can run hours of unattended production. And you still have 20" of free table space.

You’re way above B Axis centerline though which almost always sucks for everyone. Nice setup but the stack up is terrible.

And the tradeoff there is that you step down even further to 18+1 on the tools. In all my discussions with folks about a 5 axis Speedio, the big holdup was 21 tools, which is why I'm glad they figured out how to do a 28 tool turret on the U500 which opens a lot of work up. 18 though? Oofa!

The biggest hold up with a 5 Axis (Simultaneous) Speedio is that it doesn’t exist. What they should have done is put the 40MG on the side of an M300 and given it a few more inches of Z- travel and unlocked the 5th simultaneous axis.

Aside from maybe automotive, I don’t know of anyone that wants what the U500 is.
 

NLan07

Plastic
Joined
Dec 27, 2021
And the tradeoff there is that you step down even further to 18+1 on the tools. In all my discussions with folks about a 5 axis Speedio, the big holdup was 21 tools, which is why I'm glad they figured out how to do a 28 tool turret on the U500 which opens a lot of work up. 18 though? Oofa!
18 tools is pretty low.... That's more than enough for one job at a time (at least for the jobs I do/have done) and/or a machine dedicated to one part/product though, but for more efficient job shop work or automation it's definitely low. I assume that's what you mean when you say the U500 with 28 tools 'opens a lot of work up'.

I can see myself purchasing one, or a few, of these as a dedicated part machine that wouldn't need many tools and wouldn't need them swapped out for different jobs. This would also do awesome for prototype work with the standardized tooling system I use.
 
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gkoenig

Titanium
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Location
Portland, OR
You’re way above B Axis centerline though which almost always sucks for everyone. Nice setup but the stack up is terrible.

Not ideal, but everything is a set of trade-offs… and the above package is proven in enough shops that the B Axis centerline issues are workable. The productivity here is so high, the machine nerd arguments evaporate.

Aside from maybe automotive, I don’t know of anyone that wants what the U500 is.

Lots of interest in the U500 so far. Full 5 axis simultaneous motion is rare. What is not rare is needing to address 5 sides of a bigger part efficiently - the U500 swings the same diameter as a UMC500, and 300mm tall. It does so:

- in a package the size of a DT1
- at a slightly lower price than the UMC500SS
- with the same tool changes, totally sandbagged accuracy capabilities, acc/dec, and wood burning stove reliability of a Speedio

Who would be interested? Anyone considering a UMC500… which is a lot of shops!
 

gkoenig

Titanium
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Location
Portland, OR
I haven't heard of spindle grippers before. Are they basically like a robot 'hand' that attaches to the spindle instead of an arm and can load parts/raw stock sitting off to the side of the table inside the machine? I'm going to have to check that out.
Schunk and PHD both make adaptors with shanks to put their standard pneumatic gripper modules in a tool holder, and actuate them with TSC or through-spindle air. Combine it with a tray of parts and a pneumatic vise (also from Schunk), and you basically do what a big, complex, external robot does at a literal fraction of the price. Robot or Gripper, you need a pneumatic vise for either system - but the gripper only costs about $1000 all-in (holder, adapter, gripper).

This is a gripper running on a Spedio R650:

To me, this is the missing link between "I don't automate anything" and going on the arduous and $50k journey of part automation with external robots. Schunk even has a new aluminum body KSP vise for $2000, so you can start doing this in a couple of days for ~$3000 in any machine with through coolant or air.

Like any automation solution, it has strengths and weaknesses, but the cost and simplicity make it ideal for an extremely wide range of parts. I'm implementing it on my machine, but there are dozens of shops doing this with fantastic success.

Spindle grippers are the best kept secret in machining.
 

mhajicek

Titanium
Joined
May 11, 2017
Location
Minneapolis, MN, USA
Schunk and PHD both make adaptors with shanks to put their standard pneumatic gripper modules in a tool holder, and actuate them with TSC or through-spindle air. Combine it with a tray of parts and a pneumatic vise (also from Schunk), and you basically do what a big, complex, external robot does at a literal fraction of the price. Robot or Gripper, you need a pneumatic vise for either system - but the gripper only costs about $1000 all-in (holder, adapter, gripper).

This is a gripper running on a Spedio R650:

To me, this is the missing link between "I don't automate anything" and going on the arduous and $50k journey of part automation with external robots. Schunk even has a new aluminum body KSP vise for $2000, so you can start doing this in a couple of days for ~$3000 in any machine with through coolant or air.

Like any automation solution, it has strengths and weaknesses, but the cost and simplicity make it ideal for an extremely wide range of parts. I'm implementing it on my machine, but there are dozens of shops doing this with fantastic success.

Spindle grippers are the best kept secret in machining.
In that example, why not clamp that whole array of parts with uniforce clamps and machine the whole pallet in place, saving toolchanges and part transfer? There's two pallets, so you can reload one while he other is running.
 

2outof3

Titanium
Joined
Sep 27, 2014
Location
West Coast USA
In that example, why not clamp that whole array of parts with uniforce clamps and machine the whole pallet in place, saving toolchanges and part transfer? There's two pallets, so you can reload one while he other is running.
The pallet changer is not necessary. Most of the grippers are using part of a simple none pallet machine to hold the trays and then the fixture is on a fourth or tilting 4/5 table next to it. If you don't have to clamp the parts, loading the trays is much quicker. Much quicker. With the Brother machine, sharing tool changes is not necessary. We use the strength of the machine to it's benefits and get the reliability of single flow part running. As soon as you have to run multiple parts to make time, you are asking for operator error. One bad part out of a bunch, and the search begins on why. Bad load, bad pocket, not tightened. This way, you run the same as if you had a robot. And if you ever want a robot almost all the development for untended running has been done.
 

dcrace

Aluminum
Joined
Jun 26, 2002
Location
U.S.A.
In my opinion, a far better solution is to get a VF series and put the 5 axis table. Mush more capability and I don't see the internals of the axis components but if it anything like the UMC, there is almost NO rigidity, especially if you are past the C axis centerline. We are actually considering that solution as we are struggling with some parts here because of rigidity issues.
 

gkoenig

Titanium
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Location
Portland, OR
In that example, why not clamp that whole array of parts with uniforce clamps and machine the whole pallet in place, saving toolchanges and part transfer? There's two pallets, so you can reload one while he other is running.
Couple of reasons:

1- I can get more parts in the machine and a higher walkaway time.

2- *Good* pallets are expensive in both time/materials. I can have a new gripper setup running, from scratch, in half a day and about the same as the aluminum cost for one pallet (some 4140 for Op2 jaws, $30 in Starboard for the tray, $20 to have a service 3D print me some gripper fingers out of carbon/nylon if I need them).

3- Single piece flow is always idea when you can do it. With a gripper, you can get SPF without the machine tending costs.

4- This is way better than tombstones for 4 axis work, and absolutely kills it on 5 axis where pallets are not really effective.
 

DavidScott

Titanium
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Location
Washington
How do you flip the parts with a gripper from op1 to op2? I don't make any one op parts so this is a big one. Keep in mind there are a range of parts to flip.
 

2outof3

Titanium
Joined
Sep 27, 2014
Location
West Coast USA
How do you flip the parts with a gripper from op1 to op2? I don't make any one op parts so this is a big one. Keep in mind there are a range of parts to flip.
You can use a turn over station on the table, or use a rotary table to flip the orientation of the gripper. Not a fan of this. Would rather see one side done, look it over and then do the other side but that is just me.
 

gkoenig

Titanium
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Location
Portland, OR
How do you flip the parts with a gripper from op1 to op2? I don't make any one op parts so this is a big one. Keep in mind there are a range of parts to flip.

It is the same set of challenges you have with a robot. You can do flip stations, creative transfers with spindle orientation, etc etc.

Or you can leg go of the impulse to do it all done-in-one and just run batches of Op1 and Op2 and make your life much simpler because the process reliability headaches of flipping parts in automation has a much higher payoff volume than most think.
 








 
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