New Haas UMC 350 Models Coming Out Soon

[D Nelson]

And for the price of a KSP Vise and a $1000 spindle gripper from Schunk, that S700 with the TNT100 can run hours of unattended production. And you still have 20" of free table space.


And the tradeoff there is that you step down even further to 18+1 on the tools. In all my discussions with folks about a 5 axis Speedio, the big holdup was 21 tools, which is why I'm glad they figured out how to do a 28 tool turret on the U500 which opens a lot of work up. 18 though? Oofa!

The problem with the Speedio is no z travel and no tool capacity 20 tool capacity blows ass and no z capacity just pusses me off
Don

 

[gkoenig]

The problem with the Speedio is no z travel and no tool capacity 20 tool capacity blows ass and no z capacity just pusses me off
Don

Well in that case, I guess we're going out of business. I'll call the factory and tell them to shut down.

Sayonara!

 

[crossthread82]

The problem with the Speedio is no z travel and no tool capacity 20 tool capacity blows ass and no z capacity just pusses me off
Don

Well in that case, I guess we're going out of business. I'll call the factory and tell them to shut down.

Sayonara!

In an attempt to mediate lol I sort of agree with both of you.

If Brother wants to reach a larger audience (which I'm aware they don't b/c they already have their niche) it wouldn't take many changes on their end to do so. The addition of the 28tool turret on the xD1 models is huge and brings it at least close to par with most other VMC's with usual 30 pocket magazines. Most already know that big plus BT30 gets you almost equal rigidity as a CAT40 (with some gauge length restrictions). So the only major thing holding a perspective buyer back is the small z axis stroke and minimum nose to table distance.

Brother has shown they can put more Z in a machine since the W1000 has 350mm over the 300mm in the S series machines. And fundamentally those machines castings and design aren't too far from each other that they couldn't put the larger travel in the S series. If the split the increased travel so you could get 25mm closer to the table and 25mm higher overall that would be a pretty large improvement.

All of that is to say that Brother knows who it's target market is and likely won't pander to outside influences but since they've already made some of the changes people want that last one I described could be the difference maker in selling machines to perspective buyers that are used to the conventional 40 taper vertical machine.

It does seem like Brother does listen since they are coming out with the -5ax models of basically all the machines now, so maybe they'll listen to this if we ask enough???

 

[BROTHERFRANK]

Brother has shown they can put more Z in a machine since the W1000 has 350mm over the 300mm in the S series machines.

Yes the latest Speedios have Z axis updates. So far the W1000Xd2 and M300Xd1 both have 380mm (about 15") available Z stroke vs 300 on previous models. The R650Xd1 with 40+1 Tools has 435 mm Z . The spindle face on new W1000Xd2 gets about an inch closer to the table and 2" further from the table at the top than W1000Xd1 or S1000X1. The M300Xd1 spindle gets 2" closer to the tilting center line and 1" further from the tilt centerline at the top than previous M300X3.
The W and M machines (and all machines other than twin arm style R650 40+1) actually have about 100mm more Z stroke than listed. The tool change action uses it on those machines.
Brother is always walking a fine line between envelope, speed, rigidity/accuracy and reliability with their designs. They don't want to give up any performance...

 

[D Nelson]

Well in that case, I guess we're going out of business. I'll call the factory and tell them to shut down.

Sayonara!

Don’t get me wrong I’m just saying the work that I get in varies so much I could never get it done in a Speedo also I think 50 tools is not enough. I also don’t like the coolant set up in the speedios. But I do have to say they are fast and reliable machines. I guess I’m saying is I need about 25 k feet shop with lots of new machines to make me happy all with no payments
Thanks Don

 

[70olds]

In an attempt to mediate lol I sort of agree with both of you.

If Brother wants to reach a larger audience (which I'm aware they don't b/c they already have their niche) it wouldn't take many changes on their end to do so. The addition of the 28tool turret on the xD1 models is huge and brings it at least close to par with most other VMC's with usual 30 pocket magazines. Most already know that big plus BT30 gets you almost equal rigidity as a CAT40 (with some gauge length restrictions). So the only major thing holding a perspective buyer back is the small z axis stroke and minimum nose to table distance.

Is there any objective testing done to back that up? What about big plus CAT40? I am genuinely curious as to what metrics they use for testing like this, and I would be very curious to see the numbers for comparison's sake. I do also think there is a big difference of what is housing the spindle when it comes to rigidity as well. I.E two CAT40 machines alone can be very different.

 

[Houdini]

Is there any objective testing done to back that up? What about big plus CAT40? I am genuinely curious as to what metrics they use for testing like this, and I would be very curious to see the numbers for comparison's sake. I do also think there is a big difference of what is housing the spindle when it comes to rigidity as well. I.E two CAT40 machines alone can be very different.

All you have to do is think of the physics behind it.
big plus was designed to negate tool spindle Z thermal changes from allowing tool drift,
when doing injection molding and having multiple tools that need to finish a surface on a mold cavity at the same heights,
having the tooling capable of hitting a dead stop in Z helped reduce Z thermal differences.

A BT30 having less drawbar force, even with a big plus fulcrum added, isnt the same as the higher drawbar force of a CAT40 at all!.

But as mentioned show some 3rd party testing, I never looked into it just because, physics is physics.

 

[70olds]

All you have to do is think of the physics behind it.
big plus was designed to negate tool spindle Z thermal changes from allowing tool drift,
when doing injection molding and having multiple tools that need to finish a surface on a mold cavity at the same heights,
having the tooling capable of hitting a dead stop in Z helped reduce Z thermal differences.

A BT30 having less drawbar force, even with a big plus fulcrum added, isnt the same as the higher drawbar force of a CAT40 at all!.

But as mentioned show some 3rd party testing, I never looked into it just because, physics is physics.

That was my point. It doesn't make sense.

 

[Houdini]

That was my point. It doesn't make sense.

It makes sense to me, because no one ever told me a BT30 big plus was equal to a cat40, So.....

 

[Vancbiker]

Is there any objective testing done to back that up? What about big plus CAT40? I am genuinely curious as to what metrics they use for testing like this, and I would be very curious to see the numbers for comparison's sake. I do also think there is a big difference of what is housing the spindle when it comes to rigidity as well. I.E two CAT40 machines alone can be very different.

Spindle size alone is no guarantee of specific performance. I’ve seen an instance where a machine with CT40 exhibited better rigidity than the BBT50 equipped machine across the aisle.

 

[crossthread82]

It makes sense to me, because no one ever told me a BT30 big plus was equal to a cat40, So.....

Notice how I said almost...

If you took two similar machines say a S500xD1 and a DM-1 one has BBT30 other has CAT40 both will perform about the same, hence the BBT30 isn't the limiting factor.

I think any machinist that's worked with more than VMC's know the same CAT40 spindle in a horizontal is much more rigid b/c the overall machine is beefed up. Obviously a CAT40 will outperform a BBT30 if situations are idealized, but in a apples to apples comparison between similar size/weight/class machines the BBT30 isn't sacrificing much.

But I think a lot of people hear a machine has a BT30 spindle and think it's a toy when that just isn't the case.

 

[Houdini]

Notice how I said almost...

If you took two similar machines say a S500xD1 and a DM-1 one has BBT30 other has CAT40 both will perform about the same, hence the BBT30 isn't the limiting factor.

I think any machinist that's worked with more than VMC's know the same CAT40 spindle in a horizontal is much more rigid b/c the overall machine is beefed up. Obviously a CAT40 will outperform a BBT30 if situations are idealized, but in a apples to apples comparison between similar size/weight/class machines the BBT30 isn't sacrificing much.

But I think a lot of people hear a machine has a BT30 spindle and think it's a toy when that just isn't the case.

BT is legit at making parts, it is what it is.
but I can push a CAT40 index-able to overcome the draw bar pressure and fret the holder.
with BBT30 having a lower draw bar pressure, same tool is going to have lower performance before it gets sucked out and frets the tool.
but yeah depends on what your calling 'performance'.

 

[2outof3]

Big Plus BBT 30 taper is not the same as any 40 taper spindle. Big Plus was a direct response to the addition of HSK toolholders, looking for stability especially with side load and longer tools. I don't think it helps with concentricity, MST will not make a big plus toolholder because they believe it interferes with the tool sucking into the taper for better concentricity. They are a leader in Japan for toolholders used in mold and die applications.

I have not changed my opinion. If you spend a ton of time side loading your end mills over 2 inches, 30 taper is not a great solution. it does however have many benefits in keeping tools lighter, more stable spinning at higher RPM and as a standard for machines under or at 40 x 20 travels.