New Machine(s) Day! Brother S700X2 and Hardinge GT-27SP

[Rick Finsta]

The new backlights work fine. There is some bleed that washes out the screen a little because I don't have them isolated with the reflective mylar film, but I could not find that stuff in anything less than automotive supplier quantities. Much, much easier to read, especially at an angle.

Got a few other product parts I'm going to be making on it and those are all manual load/unload.

 

[couch]

The apps guy told me the G54.2 and G68.2 don't work very well? I know at the old shop we just stuck WCS geometry into each side of the fixtures but that was before they had the option. We had to do the same thing on the M140s.

I have not tried posting 4th axis code, but I have posted with the A axis turned on in the post and it does call the A0. I was going to try something later this week so I will for sure update.

G68.2 seems like such a waste to implement on a Table-Table machine unless you’re hoping to arc filter toolpaths that aren’t parallel to X or Y. Not sure why Brother even bothers with it since none of their machines have a tilting head. Might make drilling side holes easier if you have an angled head in the spindle though.

G54.2 (Rotary Fixture Offset) on the other hand is pretty useful and does work on the Brothers with the option installed, but the documentation on it sucks so most say it just doesn’t work instead of figuring it out.

You’ll essentially set a work offset to the Center Of Rotation, doesn’t matter what work offset it is. I’ll usually set it to G54.1 P47 so it’s buried and takes a lot of buttons to get to. Helps keep it from getting messed with since it rarely changes. Then the Rotary Fixture Offset values are the distance in XYZ from your Center Of Rotation. So for Brothers like the M Series, you can set your work piece to the center of your C axis, but your Z might always change so you’d put a Z value in your RFO table that’s the distance from COR to your WCS. You can use compensate for ABCXYZ though. This is just a simple example. On a 4th (A Axis) you really will only be using a Y and Z values, maybe A.

In your program you’ll call up your COR offset, then below you’ll call up the RFO.

G54.1 P47 (Center Of Rotation)
G54.2 P1 (Rotary Fixture Offset)
(Run the rest of code)
G54.2 P0 (Cancel RFO)

The main thing that trips people up is the Axis For Calculation needs to be set under the ABCXYZ values at the bottom of each Rotary Fixture Offset. It usually comes defaulted with A but for machines with tilting rotaries it needs to be reset to A/C, or whatever’s being used. None of the documentation I’ve seen covers this part.

 

[couch]

I made some adapter plates for 52 Quick Point vises.
View attachment 334521

I found the dimensions are not as intended but they hold the vise within +- 0.04ish mm from actual position.

Anyways, as the centre of the vise is slightly misaligned with the centre of rotation in both Z and Y, Rotary Fixture Offsets would have be ideal solution. Since the centre of rotation is known (170mm in Z and -200mm in Y) and X is pretty easy to measure, I can set them to G54, etc and then set G54.2 P?? on the part. I should take care of the misalignment and tract the WCS with the rotation of 4th.

Only option at this point is to have Workpiece Zero Points for all rotations which is very time consuming.

I am curious how are you going to program for the 4th axis especially in Fusion (If I am not mistaken you are using Fusion 360?).

How are you aligning the 52mm base to the rotary? Is everything doweled in place? I’d suggest removing any dowels then indicating the base to zero. This will help if anything ever slams anyways, as it will allow things to move/slip instead of break/shear. Never been a fan of pinning everything on a rotary and it will solve most of your issue.

If you’re dead set on having control of each index and don’t want to set origins at each location once rotated, set all your origins to the same place, Center Of Rotation for example, and tune each one independently. No need to have work offsets all over the place, even though the code is way better when they’re on the part/datums since the numbers actually make sense. If you’re not interested in the code though then COR is the way to go for this.

As far as Fusion goes, using Tool Orientation within each toolpath will output the A moves necessary. The post works right out of the box in most cases although it could be cleaned up, but it works.

 

[DanASM]

The new backlights work fine. There is some bleed that washes out the screen a little because I don't have them isolated with the reflective mylar film, but I could not find that stuff in anything less than automotive supplier quantities. Much, much easier to read, especially at an angle.

Got a few other product parts I'm going to be making on it and those are all manual load/unload.

This is the same alarm I have on my machine. I still havent got mine making parts yet. I have to get a tech up here to possibly change the encoder cable. I just need it making parts, not holding the foundation down.

My screen takes a little bit to brighten up. It also shows text in reverse until it warms up.

I have been too busy to spend any more time on this. I got to bite the bullet and pay the service tech.

I hope you are having good luck with yours.

 

[Ox]

Sounds like you might just need someone to walk you through the HOMING procedure, keystroke by keystroke.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Rick Finsta]

In his defense, Ox, it is kinda dumb but it is in the manuals.

You have to clear the estop by pulling up (there are two detents) on the button, then pressing the estop release button. Then, you need to jog X and Z (in any order) at least 1" away from their respective home positions. Home is Z retracted and X on the operator side of the cabinet. When you hit 1" with the second axis, motion automatically stops. Then, press the Z jog button and it will home, then press X. That must be done Z first.

If you are too close to the spindle or edge of travel in X, you can hold the estop release button to jog away from the limits, then begin the home procedure.

Sorry I don't remember which direction is +/- without the machine in front of me.

 

[Ox]

Yeah, well I have two T51's, and bought one new (was a demo) and if I have an actual "opperators" manual, I don't know where it got to?
I have programming and maint manuals, but that's about all I have from Hardinge.
So I wouldn't expect that he has everything on his used machine either.

For clarity, when he said "pull up", note that your e-stop is likely a "3 position" unit. (not normal other than on Hardinge of that era)
Pull up and it will release to center position.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[DanASM]

In his defense, Ox, it is kinda dumb but it is in the manuals.

You have to clear the estop by pulling up (there are two detents) on the button, then pressing the estop release button. Then, you need to jog X and Z (in any order) at least 1" away from their respective home positions. Home is Z retracted and X on the operator side of the cabinet. When you hit 1" with the second axis, motion automatically stops. Then, press the Z jog button and it will home, then press X. That must be done Z first.

If you are too close to the spindle or edge of travel in X, you can hold the estop release button to jog away from the limits, then begin the home procedure.

Sorry I don't remember which direction is +/- without the machine in front of me.

I had Hardinge walk me through it. I could not get the machine to do what the manual says to do. Hardinge said to check the encoder cable on the Z-Axis. Nothing looks bad at all. The encoder is looking for the 2nd trip after it is activated and does not sense it and then overtravels.

Makes sense that it could be the cable. Also make sense that the encoder is dirty and cannot see the markings to trip it.

The frustrating part is the machine was running a month before I bought it. I figure if I have to pay a service tech and its a quick fix I could get some help on the invoice. They say that the New England service techs are only 1.5 hours away. So It shouldnt be too bad on the bill.

 

[Ox]

Sorry, wrong thread, don't mean to muddy up your thread Rick, but I think that I told you (Dan) to check and clean your Z HOME switch.
Did you doo that?

You might just need to flick it with your finger(thumb?) several times to git it to free up.
Or maybe you need to order a new switch.
It is NOT the big thing that you are looking at, but rather a small replaceable unit inside it.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Garwood]

Does it have abs encoders? If I try to home one of my Fanucs with abs encoders after an encoder battery has died it will act like it missed the dog. The newer machines will say something like "zero return fail".

I had a machine that was real finicky about encoder battery power. If your machine got jiggled in transport and encoder batts lost contact for a millisecond you might want to step yourself through the procedure to reset the encoders. Google "Fanuc 1815". very easy to check.

 

[Ox]

You have to home a machine with batt/backup encoders?


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Rick Finsta]

Mine had a sticky and mal-adjusted door switch and my buddy that works on these all the time said it is very common to see issues with limit switches and such in these machines. Often just cleaning it up does the trick. Taking the whole top sheet metal piece off the slide wasn't too bad on mine and let me clean out some nooks and crannies as well as inspecting the lubrication manifold and pressure switch there. My buddy said the lubrication alarms are pretty common on these machines even when everything is getting oil where it is supposed to.

I am really looking forward to my material delivery next week so I can get this thing humming along.

In Speedio news, I decided to add air blast because I am going to be cutting plenty of steel in there. I repurposed the "jig shower" which uses M418/M419 and has outputs on the main board. Other than swapping a molex connector I was able to use leftover parts removed for the TSC/spindle wash installation. I suspected that it would be too much flow when sourced from the main air solenoid manifold, and my testing proved this correct. So I have an identical SMC solenoid on order with its own manifold base that I will plumb off the main supply to the machine.

I designed up a manifold but decided to just buy one that can has one air nozzle and three coolant nozzles per side. I am running into problems going back and forth between the 4th fixtures and the table vise which will only get worse when I install the riser. The nozzles moving in Z shoukd help greatly. I may plumb them separate from the main nozzles because there really is a ton of volume and I don't want to lose that.

I will post pictures when I have the manifold in and running.

 

[Vancbiker]

You have to home a machine with batt/backup encoders?


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Only after letting the batteries die or changing parameters like grid shift and other servo related parameters.

 

[Rick Finsta]

@couch

It just occurred to me that the smart way to set the G54.2 center of rotation offset may be to write it into Macro variables and call it with a G10 in your post processor whenever the A axis is being used in that program?

That said, and after all that work you did typing that out, looks like I didn't get the option. I'll see what Yamazen wants to turn it on but in the meantime I'll just plan on dealing with separate offsets per orientation for anything that needs to be better than +/-0.005".

 

[couch]

@couch

It just occurred to me that the smart way to set the G54.2 center of rotation offset may be to write it into Macro variables and call it with a G10 in your post processor whenever the A axis is being used in that program?

That said, and after all that work you did typing that out, looks like I didn't get the option. I'll see what Yamazen wants to turn it on but in the meantime I'll just plan on dealing with separate offsets per orientation for anything that needs to be better than +/-0.005".

I’ve been working on some probing routines the past couple days after commenting in this thread and I think the G10 line is the way to go as well. Was originally writing via System Variables but the G10 makes it so easy. I sent all this to the Brother Slack group. Sounds like some guys are going to give it a go this week. I’m off work until January so won’t have a chance to test it out until then. Either way it’s something that needs to get dialed. Lot of people could use it.

The way I currently have it is with some user inputs for which RFO to write to, stock size in X&Y, and which Axis to Calculate. The rest is hard coded with macros. Uses a second work offset for calculation so probe sets location to say P46, then subtracts P47 (COR) from it then pushes the results to the G10 line then to the desired RFO. Program is really short and simple. I think it will work out really well.

 

[couch]

I’ve been working on some probing routines the past couple days after commenting in this thread and I think the G10 line is the way to go as well. Was originally writing via System Variables but the G10 makes it so easy. I sent all this to the Brother Slack group. Sounds like some guys are going to give it a go this week. I’m off work until January so won’t have a chance to test it out until then. Either way it’s something that needs to get dialed. Lot of people could use it.

The way I currently have it is with some user inputs for which RFO to write to, stock size in X&Y, and which Axis to Calculate. The rest is hard coded with macros. Uses a second work offset for calculation so probe sets location to say P46, then subtracts P47 (COR) from it then pushes the results to the G10 line then to the desired RFO. Program is really short and simple. I think it will work out really well.

Update, Tested this today and it worked perfect. If anyone is interested let me know and I can email it to you.

 

[Fal Grunt]

I don't have a 4th yet, but I sure would like to have the program for the future!

 

[Rick Finsta]

I was going to send my salesman an email, but any idea (ballpark) what Yamazen gets for the G54.2 option?

 

[couch]

I was going to send my salesman an email, but any idea (ballpark) what Yamazen gets for the G54.2 option?

I honestly don't know exactly. Most of the chip options are around 800-1500, I think. Don't quote me on that. I think this is one of the best options out of the ones offered though.

 

[Rick Finsta]

I've got an RFQ in for it. This is a slow week a lot of places so I assume I'll hear back next week.

The Hardinge ran parts all day yesterday and didn't move a thousandth, even with insert changes. I'm pretty happy with that thing so far. I think the Takahashi is getting jealous.

Brother has been humming away doing Brother stuff. Hardest part of that machine is programming things in a way that I am not standing at the machine all day. Steady subcontract work is paying the bill and I get to use it on my stuff as well.