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New to me 10ee round dial. Help ID'ing electrical components.

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
Hi guys, I am long time lurker on here and after 5 plus years of searching, I ended up picking up a round dial machine from 1944 with the original tool cabinet, two steady rests a follower rests, 3 chucks and a bunch of tooling for less than what a SB9 project lathe seems to go for here in the PNW.

All of the accessories have a EE number stamped on them that match the lathes SN so I believe they are all original.

IMG_0578.jpg

IMG_0581.jpg

From reading on here, I thought the round dials where 12", but the machine label reads 12.5" Guess i'll need to measure to confirm this is a "new height" machine, not that it really matters.
Does anyone have any idea what the triangle with the 35 in it means next to the serial number stamped on the ways? This machine has a Westinghouse inventory tag on it and I believe they where the original owner.
IMG_0580.jpg

When I inspected the machine, it was running on 220V 3 phase power and everything ran as it should, but its all covered in oil. Thats cleaning up nicely so far. I do plan on doing a pretty complete restoration of the machine, but do not plan on scraping the ways as they seem to be in pretty good shape and I'd probably do more damage than good then attempts scraping. (I did that all the way down to the last screw on my Bridgeport when I bought it). All of the wiring on the machine appears original, with the exception of the wires going from the motor panel to the control panel. Since I can see copper in spots where the insulation is worn or broken, I am going to replace all of the wiring with modern machine tool wire and the proper wire terminals. I'm going to pull the existing wire / control prior to cleaning the inside of the machine.

So that brings me to what will probably be just the start of many questions IU have about this machine. Can you guys ID the electrical components in the control panel for me? Specifically I am most interested in the moment as to what the devices are in the photo bellow that I labeled #3 as they appear quite corroded. Are these old oil filled capacitors?

IMG_0552.jpgIMG_0552.jpg
The guy I bought the machine from gave me a binder that has what appears to be two different sets of the original photocopied manual from Monarch. However the only electrical diagram only has a drawing and none of the actual Componets on the drawing are labeled other Than the DC motor, Exciter, Generator, and AC Motor.

I have been slowly reading back through all of the immense info you guys have posted here over the years and have been searching the forum and have found it all to be quite informative. So thanks for providing such an amazing resource for these machines!
 
Last edited:

lectrician1

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Location
Las Vegas
#3-those are resistors which usually need to be changed. There is a thread on PM which discusses where to get them. They are about $10 each from Newark. I will look for the part numbers
#4 and 5 are forward reverse contactors
 

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
#3-those are resistors which usually need to be changed. There is a thread on PM which discusses where to get them. They are about $10 each from Newark. I will look for the part numbers
#4 and 5 are forward reverse contactors

Awesome thank you so much for the info. If you happen to find the part numbers that would be a huge help! While I am at it does it make sense to change the rest of the components out? In addition to these I know I will at the very least need to get new brushes for the motors, and generator.
 

lectrician1

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Location
Las Vegas
My general opinion is if its not broke dont fix it. You can remove the resistors and test them individually. One or more will usually test open circuit. the other components in the DC panel are not easily replaceable with new components.So if they are working maybe just clean the contacts with Deoxit or something similar.
 

lectrician1

Hot Rolled
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Location
Las Vegas
Welcome to the club!

This is a common problem with square-dial MG machines. The 2000 Ohm resistor (B-E) in the upper right corner of the panel is probably bad. The two 1600 Ohms resistors (A-B) should probably be replaced as well:
ee38128-img10664-anno.jpg


The 1600 Ohms resistors are not a stock item. Since they are connected in series a 3000 and a 200 Ohm resistor can be used instead.

You can order them from Newark for $7 to $9 each. Here’s what I would order:
L50J2K0E (2000 Ohm, 50W, 5%) Newark #64K5003
L50J3K0E (3000 Ohm, 50W, 5%) Newark #64K5013
L50J200E (200 Ohm, 50W, 5%) Newark #64K5007
I haven’t checked Digikey or Mouser, but they are also options.
 

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
Welcome to the club!

This is a common problem with square-dial MG machines. The 2000 Ohm resistor (B-E) in the upper right corner of the panel is probably bad. The two 1600 Ohms resistors (A-B) should probably be replaced as well:
ee38128-img10664-anno.jpg


The 1600 Ohms resistors are not a stock item. Since they are connected in series a 3000 and a 200 Ohm resistor can be used instead.

You can order them from Newark for $7 to $9 each. Here’s what I would order:
L50J2K0E (2000 Ohm, 50W, 5%) Newark #64K5003
L50J3K0E (3000 Ohm, 50W, 5%) Newark #64K5013
L50J200E (200 Ohm, 50W, 5%) Newark #64K5007
I haven’t checked Digikey or Mouser, but they are also options.

Awesome thank you! I figured the rest would be hard to come by and luckily it seems to be in good shape too. Where are you getting the A-B and the B-E designations? will that be stamped on the originals one I clean them up?

Thoughts on coating over those flat fabric insulated contractor wires with liquid tape?
 

rimcanyon

Diamond
Joined
Sep 28, 2002
Location
Salinas, CA USA
Grant, welcome to the club. FYI, you can increase your image sizes with one simple trick: change the filename so that it ends .jpg before you upload it. The BBS software has a config file that keeps files ending .jpeg from being displayed full size. It would be easy to fix but admins have been told multiple times and nothing has been done.
 

rke[pler

Diamond
Joined
Feb 19, 2002
Location
Peralta, NM USA
#1 is the field acceleration relay. When you have too much current draw on the armature it'll pull in to make sure that there's enough field. Field is weakened for speed above about half. It's hard to accelerate with low field so this is there to let you start the drive in a high speed

#2 is the antiplugging relay. It keeps you from going from forward to reverse unless the spindle is slow enough that it won't put a big load on the drive. Generally this is about 100-300 rpm.
 

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
Grant, welcome to the club. FYI, you can increase your image sizes with one simple trick: change the filename so that it ends .jpg before you upload it. The BBS software has a config file that keeps files ending .jpeg from being displayed full size. It would be easy to fix but admins have been told multiple times and nothing has been done.
I changed the file names and re-uploaded and they still looks like they are getting reduced in size. This forum software seems to be pretty outdated and clunky!
 

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
#1 is the field acceleration relay. When you have too much current draw on the armature it'll pull in to make sure that there's enough field. Field is weakened for speed above about half. It's hard to accelerate with low field so this is there to let you start the drive in a high speed

#2 is the antiplugging relay. It keeps you from going from forward to reverse unless the spindle is slow enough that it won't put a big load on the drive. Generally this is about 100-300 rpm.


Awesome thanks! This is why I generally like doing a rebuild on a machine prior to using it. I find I end up learning a ton about the machine it self from the process.
 

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
Doubt it would adhere well- the (Linen?) "Cambric" woven tube fabric is usually "oil filled" then greasy-dirt "top-coated" by this age.

:)

New cambric can be fitted, but you'd need to desolder one end, and the old solid wire is already prone to the odd break at the bend nearest a through-hole or solder joint.

Personally, I'd replace the lot of it with modern "Tefzel" stranded and tinned as approved for in-heating-duct sustained hi-temperature service, no longer need Cambric sleeving.

I was planning on replacing all of the wiring with Machine Tool Wire. I’m not familiar with the Tefzel designation. Is that the insulation material?

On the contractors the 5 large flat cambric covered wires that connect to them are pinned on. Not sure how I’d replace those. 16DAB166-ADB6-4528-BF6D-159070905C48.jpg

The wires for the upper coils also are not in great shape and will need to be dealt with.
A93D9AAF-9943-4C86-8C26-40FE4C6C1756.jpgE0496FB3-3F35-48A7-AAE7-764F61B4C631.jpg

Any ideas what this guy is?CDE07C37-147A-47C1-AA98-7DB5489EB140.jpg

Thanks!
 

Cal Haines

Diamond
Joined
Sep 19, 2002
Location
Tucson, AZ
I was planning on replacing all of the wiring with Machine Tool Wire. I’m not familiar with the Tefzel designation. Is that the insulation material?

On the contractors the 5 large flat cambric covered wires that connect to them are pinned on. Not sure how I’d replace those.
View attachment 323089
...
I would not mess with the flying leads unless it's absolutely necessary. Machine Tool Wire is definitely the wrong wire there. Those leads have a large number of very fine wire to make the leads as flexible as possible. If you use the wrong wire the relays won't work.
...
The wires for the upper coils also are not in great shape and will need to be dealt with.
View attachment 323090View attachment 323091 ...
Those are the "blow out" coils for the armature contacts. When the contact opens, the coil's magnetic fields collapse and drag the arcs up the U-shaped "arc chutes" until they're long enough that the arcs dissipates. I would carefully clean them and, if necessary, coat them with spray on insulating varnish like EL600.

I would STRONGLY suggest that you not try to replace the DC panel wiring! It's probably just fine. Gently cleaning with distilled water, a high quality soap and a soft brush, followed by drying several days outside (assuming you're somewhere that doesn't have high humidity) will do the trick. Coat small bare spots on wires with liquid electrical "tape". Replace only the wires that you absolutely need to replace. Search "cleaning old radio chassis" for more tips.

See also these links:
Cal
 

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
I would not mess with the flying leads unless it's absolutely necessary. Machine Tool Wire is definitely the wrong wire there. Those leads have a large number of very fine wire to make the leads as flexible as possible. If you use the wrong wire the relays won't work.

Those are the "blow out" coils for the armature contacts. When the contact opens, the coil's magnetic fields collapse and drag the arcs up the U-shaped "arc chutes" until they're long enough that the arcs dissipates. I would carefully clean them and, if necessary, coat them with spray on insulating varnish like EL600.

I would STRONGLY suggest that you not try to replace the DC panel wiring! It's probably just fine. Gently cleaning with distilled water, a high quality soap and a soft brush, followed by drying several days outside (assuming you're somewhere that doesn't have high humidity) will do the trick. Coat small bare spots on wires with liquid electrical "tape". Replace only the wires that you absolutely need to replace. Search "cleaning old radio chassis" for more tips.

See also these links:
Cal

Thanks Cal! I've actually already started to methodically, go through and replace each wire in the DC panel one by one as the insulation was so bad it would literally fall apart in my hands. The flying leads are in pretty good shape, so I'l leave them be. I did take a fiberglass contact cleaner brush to clean up the contacts tho. I am replacing the wiring with 12 gauge machine tool wire, with a chemical resistant insulation. For the terminals I am using marine grade crimp ones, that once you crimp you heat up to glue the shrink wrap to the insulation and melt the solder inside of the connectors. I then use my label maker to put a perma-sleeve cable label on each end of the connections, so it will be easy to always know what connects to what if I need to revisit the wiring down the road.

I've been documenting the process so far on a thread over at Garage Journal. Here is where I am currently at. Rebuilding a monarch 10ee lathe | Page 3 | The Garage Journal Not sure it really makes since to cross post a lot of it here, since I'm sure the majority of what I am doing is already covered here in depth. Especially as I am not a machinist by any means, just a guy that likes to build things in his home shop.

I am quickly approaching the time where I need to decide what to do about paint for the lathe. I can use the same hardhat rustolem I used on my Bridgeport (so far its held up well other than one brand of cutting fluid attacked it), or a local automotive paint supply can mix a polyurethane paint for me and put it into spray cans (I understand all of the issues with spraying polyurethane). That runs about $150 for the paint, plus $30 a can for 12 cans.... ouch. Plus once you activate a can you can't re-use it once it cures. So that will make it way more expensive to paint as I go. If anyone has experience with the polyurethane and cutting fluids, I would love some input. I only use minimal cutting fluid, as I apply it with an acid brush and have no plans to use flood coolant. That being said, I would rather spend a bit more upfront to do a really good paint job and not have to paint it again!
 

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
I found the local Benjamin-Moore had their single-component, self cross-linking Alkyd "Super-Spec" industrial and machinery paint primer on sale, and the colour coat "reasonable" for a gallon each of the "PM posted" formula for "Rock Moss Green", and one of their stock tints called "Chinaberry Red" which is sort of a Burgundy.

B-M is good paint. Very. "Modern" low-VOC paints have struggled to keep-up with the ease of use of older paints. I rate B-M superior at doing that tough tasking well... over Sherwin-Williams.. some of which have gone sort of watery at application time.

Their WIDE tintable range is NICE for an industrial-grade coating, too! Pick form their own pallet, bring your formula, or have them optical colour--match to a sample, same as painting a bath, kitchen, or bedroom.

Primer is "optional" with their Super-Spec. It can be brushed, sprayed, rolled, needs no Black Magic, extenders, dryers, nor other special handling, is legendary durable, CAN be heated (make a "tent" put in a space heater..) to speed-up cross-linking for a harder surface sooner (published info), annnnnnd.. can easily be TOUCHED UP, later..

"Spot touch-up" is not always as easy with the fancy, and too-often dreadfully toxic, "two part" witch's brews.

Sherwin-Williams and PPG ALSO have some very good industrial coatings that PM members have used.

So-too even "Tractor Supply" with weather and animal-waste resistant agricultural machinery coatings.

Even "Rust-Oleum" - especially their "hammer" finishes - are a lot of easy to use goodness for relatively low investment. Their hammer finish tribe doesn't require a primer, either.

TEMPTING to have Ditzler gin me up some of the lovely "Metallic Mica Slate" but ... WTH.. I'm better-served to leave that to the vintage XJ8-L, the "Nara Bronze" to the Range Rover.... and expect the Machine tools to continue to be ...

ta da...

Machine tools!

And NOT Concours d'elegance vintage British motorcars!

:D

Thanks. Never thought of Benjamin more for this, I always think of them as just house paint. I went and checked out the Super spec. Going to have them order a pint of it for me to test before I fully commit to it. The sales guy says it will brush or roll on quite well, so we will see. The sherwin Williams store recommended Sher-Kem with seems similar to super spec, but can only be sprayed. It seems like those two options and the tried and true rustoluem hardhat are the best options, for durability, being able to be touched up, and with out the headache of a two part poly and its nasty chems and all that goes with handling that safely.
 

GrantGunderson

Cast Iron
Joined
Jun 4, 2021
Location
Bellingham, WA
So after a crazy busy summer with my day job, and a bunch of time testing different paint systems, I am finally able to concentrate on the lathe again. For paint I ended up deciding on a PPG poly paint system that I can spray really well with the Iwata Lph80 gun I bought. For the recored that gun does a great job, even with my tiny nailing compressor.

Working on the tail stock, does anyone have a tip for removing this stud?
IMG_1935.jpg
I've tried placing a nut on it and using a wrench under it to tap it out, but it seems to be fully seized in there.

I took the cover off of the head stock today to have a look inside, It actually looks to be in really good shape. Despite, pulling the drain plugs there is still enough oil in there to keep the gears lubricated when turning, so thats a really good sign.IMG_1928.jpg

When I both the machine I put a thousands dial indicator on the headstock and got no movement when I had it running... impressive. The bearings feel incredibly smooth when turning it by hand. Looking at the inside, it appears that a previous owner rebuilt the head and replaced the bearings.... despite the obvious hack job to remove them, it feels and indicates as new. So that will save a bunch of work in the rebuild.IMG_1930.jpg
 

texasgeartrain

Titanium
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Location
Houston, TX
Working on the tail stock, does anyone have a tip for removing this stud?

I'm not sure you will get stud out. But the part that locks the quill should come out and slip over the stud. Might need to turn TS upside down and reach into quill bore to push it out. Then you can get it and its bore cleaned and lubed nice.
 

Cal Haines

Diamond
Joined
Sep 19, 2002
Location
Tucson, AZ
...
Working on the tail stock, does anyone have a tip for removing this stud?
View attachment 330067
I've tried placing a nut on it and using a wrench under it to tap it out, but it seems to be fully seized in there.
...
Looking at square-dial parts sheet 115 and round-dial parts picture E-11, it looks like the stud is threaded into a tapped hole in the tailstock casting. (It's basically a rod that's threaded on both ends.) I would leave it alone unless you need to replace it. Any attempt to unscrew it is likely to destroy it and force you to make another one.

Cal
 

rakort

Hot Rolled
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Location
Central Wisconsin
Agreed, no need to take that out. The clamp for the tail stock quill should come out without removing the stud, but may be stuck in there.


Looking at square-dial parts sheet 115 and round-dial parts picture E-11, it looks like the stud is threaded into a tapped hole in the tailstock casting. (It's basically a rod that's threaded on both ends.) I would leave it alone unless you need to replace it. Any attempt to unscrew it is likely to destroy it and force you to make another one.

Cal
 








 
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