New (To me) Machine day! Warner and Swasey SC-32

[Ox]

Pneumatic chucks, especially larger diameter ones have some pretty strong gripping force because the pistons have such large area in them and the ramp the jaws are sliding on is quite steep. There are some designs that have a two stage ramp that allows the jaws to open more near the end of the piston stroke but these have two limitations: You must be very careful they actually grip on the steep ramp stage and they can't be used as ID workholding chucks, at least if I remember correctly.

I was actually thinking about both of those issues as I was reading about the 2 stage ramps.


I hydro actuator has the same type valving, it's just piloted check valves.
Likely not much different than a pneu style I don't s'pose.



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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Ox]

Here's a pic of what I have going out the back door. It's not much, and I seldom ever run long shafts on this machine, but in a few cases - I did. I ended up having to blow a hole in the wall into the office to let one pass....
Just a ring with 3 tapped holes in it, and the bolts changed per the bar size and then adjusted close to C/L.

They're not going to hold anything, but they keep it centered and from rattlin'.
Not much a replacement for a real chuck, but might be an option to git'chew trhrough 'till you find a reasonable deal on a 19" bore 3 jaw..


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Garwood]

If I had this lathe I'd have to call Trusty Cook and casually ask for a quote on some spindle liners. Just to see what their reaction is.

 

[Ox]

I have a cpl of liners that I made for this one.
For jobs that don't stick out the back.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Nerv]

Well, judging from the drawings I found at the back of the manual I think there is a strong possibility that boring bar assembly is custom designed and built in-house by Dril-Quip themselves. The whole bar doesn't rotate, only the very tip does and it has a curvic coupling right behind it. Essentially it is built very similar to a normal turret only it's on the end of a long extension. If I take it apart (or manually hydraulically actuate it) I'll check the amount of teeth on that coupling to see what the minimum indexing angle is, it may be possible to design a new mini turret that can hold more than 4 tools if it becomes necessary. There is information about the product this lathe was intended to build, I honestly don't know how someone would make those parts with any other type of machine, it would require many long large boring bars!

Nerv

 

[Ox]

That is very interesting! What I wonder is how many were made with this lower integrated indexing boring bar with rotating tapered rings when the lower slide is used as a tailstock for tube/pipe:

View attachment 392293

Nerv

Per this pic:

Does this mean that this machine doesn't have an "endwerking" turret?
IDK the normal layout for a W&S, but from what I can see of the slide and the upper turret, it appears to be similar to larger Cinci and/or J&L layout, which would employ a lay-down turret down below for long toys.

Did they trade the lower turret for this boring bar thing?

If you are planning on running pipe in it, then the boring bar set-up is likely the poyfect layout for your needs?


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[EmGo]

I hydro actuator has the same type valving, it's just piloted check valves.
Likely not much different than a pneu style I don't s'pose.

My Eagle had a front-mount SMW air chuck -- yeah, they are all "front-mount" but I think that's what they called it since there was no drawbar, the entire actuating mechanism was inside the chuck and activated from the nose end. Gave a bigger thru-hole and no actuator hanging off the back, which was the nice part.

Two drawbacks, at least with this one - they do a single shot of compressed air to actuate, and it does slowly leak. Maybe not when brand new but after a few thousand open-close cycles and several years, the chuck loses grip after a while. It's fine for ten minute cycles but if you have something that takes twenty minutes, better put an opstop in and re-juice it. Hydraulic is always pumping pressure so even if it leaks, just makes a mess instead of flinging the part out.

But that was after a few years, I probably could have taken it apart and re-sealed it. Yeah, like we have time for that ?

The bigger drawback was that they are less controllable. At higher gripping pressures not a problem, but for light parts, you couldn't dial it down as far. Hydraulic is more positive ... air will compress where hydraulic, even at low pressure, will move the jaws. Pneumo compresses and compresses, but doesn't move. So you up the pressure which then clamps but the pressure is now too high.

Not a problem if you are doing heavy work but for fragile parts I'd take 'draulic every time.

 

[Garwood]

Hydraulic is always pumping pressure so even if it leaks, just makes a mess instead of flinging the part out.

The beautiful part about hydraulic chucks is the simplicity of the actuator. Not much can actually go wrong with the things. The rotary unions don't have any seals and the piston o-ring can by 40% gone and still work just fine.

 

[Garwood]

Did they trade the lower turret for this boring bar thing?
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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

It sure looks that way.

Without the lay down turret it would seem it be a real challenge (impossible?) To run drills and normal size boring bars.

The Dildozer looks like a hell of a lathe for big tube, but might be better off with the original lower turret for most other work.

 

[Cole2534]

Well, judging from the drawings I found at the back of the manual I think there is a strong possibility that boring bar assembly is custom designed and built in-house by Dril-Quip themselves. The whole bar doesn't rotate, only the very tip does and it has a curvic coupling right behind it. Essentially it is built very similar to a normal turret only it's on the end of a long extension. If I take it apart (or manually hydraulically actuate it) I'll check the amount of teeth on that coupling to see what the minimum indexing angle is, it may be possible to design a new mini turret that can hold more than 4 tools if it becomes necessary. There is information about the product this lathe was intended to build, I honestly don't know how someone would make those parts with any other type of machine, it would require many long large boring bars!

Nerv

A) That's pretty freakin cool.

B) Isn't Dril-Quip where John Oder cut his teeth? I know he built som impressive trepanning machines and I think that's who it was for. All that to say, they must have had one very impressive engineering and development shop.

 

[Cole2534]

The beautiful part about hydraulic chucks is the simplicity of the actuator. Not much can actually go wrong with the things. The rotary unions don't have any seals and the piston o-ring can by 40% gone and still work just fine.

YES! And, per my recent testing, they're really quite robust.

 

[Nerv]

...Without the lay down turret it would seem it be a real challenge (impossible?) To run drills and normal size boring bars.

The Dildozer looks like a hell of a lathe for big tube, but might be better off with the original lower turret for most other work.

HAHAHA! What a nickname! Lately my family has been coming up with nicknames for all my equipment, but that is one that I don't think we'll run with. The end of the "boring turret" comes off with 4 bolts easily enough, I could make an capto adapter or something that could bolt on and then run a smaller bar or drill for one-off applications. I was thinking it may be easier to just add that capability to the top turret and leave the lower assembly as is for large boring only. It wouldn't be that difficult though the base for the top turret isn't as wide as my other box-way lathes (At least it doesn't appear to be, the machine is so large proportions can make things look smaller than they actually are) I'm not sure how rigid the top turret is against offset forces applied creating a twisting moment at the face of the turret. - On second thought, I just went out to the machine to take a photo of the slide (shown below) and any boring bars or drills added to the top turret would never clear the chuck. There was another W&S sold at the auction for parts that had the perpendicular rotating turret (Like Mori SL-8) still on it. If they weren't so massive and expensive to transport it would have been worth it to buy just for the spares. It is probably not really worth all the effort to swap that lower assembly for different jobs though, I'll just let the Mori take that sort of work and leave this for long OD/Tube work.

Also, on the top turret it has a slide, I thought this would be for a part off blade but that isn't what is loaded in that position now.



Anyone have thoughts on how this may be typically used?

Nerv

 

[Garwood]

When I saw the picture I immediately thought of Idiocracy and the Dildozer.

If you have an SL8 I don't see a reason to neuter the Dildozer.

 

[Nerv]

Oh, I have not yet seen that movie despite it being recommended to me several times now. I think these days it might not be as funny, just like the political correctness skits from Jeff Foxworthy back in the day... now it's just sad because that is where we are now.

I have an SL-6B, remember the one I was repainting in my "Insane member" MC800H thread? It's almost done, I moved to an acreage and then moved my equipment from the shop I was renting so progress was hindered on that machine until it was here. Now I'm just trying to find space for all these large machines while I build a 5000 sq ft shop on this property. That's the plan anyway.

 

[Ox]

Per your pic:

Doo you have a tailstock on this heifer?

If so, I would guess that this is for reaching back a little further than the toys on the front of the turret will reach?

At least - I ran into this myself just recently, where I had to use a pocket for a sub-spindle tool, turned around and running the first cpl inches of the part before the other tools could pick up the ball and run with it.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[EmGo]

Oh, I have not yet seen that movie

You absolutely must. Maybe even use Brawndo for coolant, it's got electrolytes !

If it weren't so true, it wouldn't be so funny. And the president is too much. I'd vote for Herbert Camacho over any of the idiots in washington right now.

 

[Cole2534]

You absolutely must. Maybe even use Brawndo for coolant, it's got electrolytes !

Plenty of you tards are out there living kick ass lives now. My first wife was 'tarded. She's a pilot now.

 

[Nerv]

Doo you have a tailstock on this heifer?

If so, I would guess that this is for reaching back a little further than the toys on the front of the turret will reach?

Sort of, this machine is all about tubing, so to that end, when you need a tailstock for OD work, the second turret has a pair of tapered rotating rings on the outside of that lower boring bar:



The two turrets are independently controlled, so once the lower turret is on center you can run it into the tube (Programmable tailstock) and support it that way, it's nice they placed heavy springs inside the housing so a light impact with the material will not harm the leadscrew for that axis. It is well thought out.

There is 10 feet of travel so even though this boring bar/turret is long there is still plenty of room to move around, especially since the top turret moves independently of the lower anyway. I need to measure but I think it can take a uninterrupted clean OD pass of at least 110" under the right conditions.

So like you say Ox, maybe that slide tool really is just in or out, not designed to "feed" and once in the "out" position acts as a tool on the back of the turret assembly that can run much closer to the tailstock. That explains why it has the tool it does in there. I think you are right, thanks for your thoughts.

Nerv

 

[Ox]

OK, I guess I wasn't recalling that it was a 4 axis lathe.
Typically the two turrets were on a common slide.

And you are hoping to add C and live then - maybe?
Y?

I would think that a tube lathe wouldn't need Y all that much.
I thought that I had an app to run some big tubes for a military job some years back, and they would require threaded holes and winders, and I was thinking of adding C axis (even a crude semblance) as manipulating the tubes on a 4x mill afterwards would have been a real ..... PITA....

IDK what happened to the job, but the quoting process just got so ridiculous that in the end I was gunna be pissed if we didn't git it as I had SO much time in it already, and at the same time I was so pissed about it - that I was ready to be done with it just the same.

It didn't fly, and I never asked why.
Haven't had app for C on this lathe since.


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Nerv]

And you are hoping to add C and live then - maybe?
Y?

Well some of the shaft work I have could use the ability to mill slots in them, and being able to drill/tap/threadmill would be handy too. Now that I know how the mechanicals work with that lower turret though, I'm not sure. It comes down to how much a pain it is to try to mill/drill 20' long large diameter parts on anything else. Everything is pretty open for modification, we'll see. If it seems I need the capability, I'll mill something up and swap out that upper turret assembly.

Nerv