New VMC machine in shop with asphalt

[owenhooker]

I am installing a new Haas DT1 in a shop that has asphalt over cement flooring in the area the VMC need to go. Naturally im not going to be setting the machine on the aspahlt so I'm looking for some advise. The aspahlt is a about 1.5" thick and I can cut out the asphalt in the area where the leveling pads will sit but I dont want to jack the machine higher on the leveling screws than necesary. I figure that I could make or buy larger leveling pads to make up the 1.5". Alternativly I could remove the asphalt maybe 12" circles where the pads will go and fill the holes with concrete to level them with the asphalt. The exisiting cement floor is about 12" thick and reinforced so it's plenty stong for such a small machine. My concern is that pouring new cement ontop of the old might not give me as stable of a base as I need?

I realize a shop floor with asphalt is less than ideal and is going to be a bit of a pain but it's what I have to work with at the moment. Why anyone would put asphalt on a shop floor still boggles my mind.

I appreciate any insight or experience anyone hass to offer.

Owen

 

[DDoug]

Why anyone would put asphalt on a shop floor still boggles my mind.

I have seen it done for wood block flooring to be applied on top.

 

[thermite]

I am installing a new Haas DT1 in a shop that has asphalt over cement flooring in the area the VMC need to go. Naturally im not going to be setting the machine on the aspahlt so I'm looking for some advise. The aspahlt is a about 1.5" thick and I can cut out the asphalt in the area where the leveling pads will sit but I dont want to jack the machine higher on the leveling screws than necesary. I figure that I could make or buy larger leveling pads to make up the 1.5". Alternativly I could remove the asphalt maybe 12" circles where the pads will go and fill the holes with concrete to level them with the asphalt. The exisiting cement floor is about 12" thick and reinforced so it's plenty stong for such a small machine. My concern is that pouring new cement ontop of the old might not give me as stable of a base as I need?

I realize a shop floor with asphalt is less than ideal and is going to be a bit of a pain but it's what I have to work with at the moment. Why anyone would put asphalt on a shop floor still boggles my mind.

I appreciate any insight or experience anyone hass to offer.

Owen

Remove the Asphalt. Classed as "flexible" pavement, it cannot HELP but "creep" over time, and not in a very controllable manner. Elastomeric pads - even natural CORK, are at least predictable.

That simple. Really. It is.

 

[owenhooker]

I was never planning to put the machine on the asphalt. At the moment I cannot remove all of the asphalt but only what’s in the areas where the leveling pads will sit.

My question is really if it’s best to use taller leveling pads where I remove the asphalt or if I should remove the asphalt in the 4 places where the leveling pads will sit and then fill them with concrete and after it’s properly cured use the leveling pads that come with the machine.

 

[adama]

Honestly i would just stick it on there, its not going to be much of a issue if older hard asphalt and the floor never sees the heat of a hot direct sun. That machine is not liable to floor movement anything like a lathe.

 

[Milland]

Remove the assfault from a circle roughly 8" in diameter where the OEM pads will go. Procure some scrap 1.5" steel, cut to 8" OD disk, grind top and bottom flat from any burrs or slag from torch cutting. A rough surface that's flat overall is fine.

Use a diamond grit masonry disk (like this: 1mm 4 Inch Diamond Grinding Wheel Concrete Masonry Stone Marble Sanding Disc | eBay or similar) to dress the surface of the concrete until flat, you can "print" for mate by using chalk dust. Throw a few 3/8-16 tapped holes into the steel plate for lifting aids like eye or regular bolts.

When all four plates fit well in their holes, you can place the machine and level as usual. You could use some thin setting grout or epoxy to anchor the plates, but it's not critical. The tapped holes can be used to jack the plates out if they ever need to be removed.

 

[thermite]

I was never planning to put the machine on the asphalt. At the moment I cannot remove all of the asphalt but only what’s in the areas where the leveling pads will sit.

My question is really if it’s best to use taller leveling pads where I remove the asphalt or if I should remove the asphalt in the 4 places where the leveling pads will sit and then fill them with concrete and after it’s properly cured use the leveling pads that come with the machine.

Just use metal plates, optionally grouted, to come back to - or a tad above - the level of the ass'es fault. Milland's got the formula. At least one (off-centre) future-removal jacking screw hole drilled and tapped per-each planned in advance.

Rely on the existing concrete. Do not bother trying to craft small "island" pads in 'crete. They'd have to be mostly metal "ferro-concrete" to survive, anyway. If-even.

 

[thermite]

Honestly i would just stick it on there, its not going to be much of a issue if older hard asphalt and the floor never sees the heat of a hot direct sun. That machine is not liable to floor movement anything like a lathe.

That is too thin to class as "Asphaltic CONCRETE". Aggregates will be small, uniform, not an interlocking gradation. It's basically a "silencer" wear course, roadway practice-wise. Its binder is trapped by impervious concrete below, not (semi) permeable subgrade.

It will remain more flexible than average, and subject to creep, any human-tolerable temps, far longer than average. That "self healing" under kneading of traffic is what asphalt is MEANT to do. Or at least try to do.

 

[Joe Rogers]

And be aware that some solvent spills can create a huge mess.
Joe

 

[DDoug]

And be aware that some solvent spills can create a huge mess.
Joe

As well as liquid Ox spills.....

 

[hanermo]

I dont see the problem.
Slap a 3 mm steel plate under the machine, done.
Any grout, goop, concrete, cement of your choice if you want to make it cavity filled.

It will geometric-average any inconsistencies.
And the asphalt won´t boogie woogie locally, per foot of machine - why would it ?

The asphalt might actually be a better foundation for the machine.
It will insulate and shock-absorb the machine from any other vibrations, is heavy, and a natural damper.
A DT is small and light- thus my advice.

The steel plate on asphalt might have == 100-200 metric tons creep resistance.
It has a lot of surface area for very little load.
And it is cheap, easy, 5 minutes, and you can always revisit the job after 1 year, for near zero extra cost, if you need to.
And you can sell the plate for == same cost, or make it into widgets at 10x the price, later, if you must.

 

[thermite]

I dont see the problem.

Then you've never traversed an asphalt roadway by motor-vehicle, seen it change shape, especially in braking/acceleration zones at traffic-light controlled intersections and on curved motorway entry/exit ramps.

Get real. "Flexible pavement" is not a stage-name, it is "in the Levi's". Genes.

The s**t MOVES! It was MEANT to do!

 

[owenhooker]

Good advise to watch out for solvent on the asphalt as I hadn't given that any thought.

I'm Glad to hear that using a steel riser plate is my best option, I didn't really want to deal with pouring concrete anyway. What about just finding taller leveling pads? Haas makes a larger pad for some of there machines but I dont have the dimensions of this yet. As a side note the Haas tech I know and trust told me I realy should anchor the machine so I do plan to do that.

Will there be any real functional difference from using a riser pad and then the Oem pad on top as opposed to just buying or making a taller leveling pad? is there anything special about the cast aluminum Oem pads from haas? I would have thought somthing stiffer like steel would have been better than oem aluminum.

 

[adama]

Its a sub 3 ton small compact VMC, it weighs less than a car, cars don't sink in car parks do they? Why will this sink here if the floor has been properly compacted in the first place?

 

[thermite]

Its a sub 3 ton small compact VMC, it weighs less than a car, cars don't sink in car parks do they?

Yes, mate, they very well DO. So, too boots, bicycles, and high-heeled shoes.

Look for tire-tread imprints. Large goods vehicles with high tire pressures especially. Mere passenger cars, you'd need to sight across the carpark after a rainfall - they are shallower and smoother.

Then observe those "footprints" gradually vanish and MOVE as other traffic re-kneads the asphalt. More obvious, yet, drop the outriggers on a JCB, or an overhead line work "cherry picker" or crane, note pad mark depressions. Then see those also fade over time from re-kneading. Usually, anyway.

The VMC can't benefit. It ain't meant to share surface with a flow of grocery shoppers.

Why will this sink here if the floor has been properly compacted in the first place?

It will NOT even offer to sink into the underlying thick concrete, nor its subgrade.

There's no real "problem" here. Only folks as can't be bothered to read a thread from post #1. The OP has already made the correct decision to remove the unpredictability of the cosmetic Asphalt skim from his part of the equation.

What has to be removed is only a thin "shag rug" of flexible asphalt some Idiot placed ATOP the thick concrete as it it were poorboy's pitch-set end-grain wood-block floor substitute.

Nuisance task, but any tile or flooring firm has the goods to JF do that selective-area removal cleanly.

So do I, old and lazy about chisels as I've become.

Air-powered, stand up AND "on yer kneepads" power-scrapers resembling a vintage Anderson "portable shaper":

42 in. Long Reach Air Scraper

.. or a madman's BIAX on steroids:

Crude, rude, and socially unacceptable, the both of them - NOT "gasket" scrapers. Bludgeons, rather, with heavy counterweights inbuilt to offset the resistance of the old flooring material.

Also fast, neat, and easy to use. Until the insane rattle drives you bats**t bugf**k, anyway.
DAMHIKT.

 

[Milland]

Will there be any real functional difference from using a riser pad and then the Oem pad on top as opposed to just buying or making a taller leveling pad? is there anything special about the cast aluminum Oem pads from haas? I would have thought somthing stiffer like steel would have been better than oem aluminum.

I'd be shocked if the OEM pads are aluminum. Last I saw they're cast iron or steel. If new ones are Al then Haas haas (sic) gone mad...

 

[ewlsey]

Its a sub 3 ton small compact VMC, it weighs less than a car, cars don't sink in car parks do they? Why will this sink here if the floor has been properly compacted in the first place?

I have a rolling cart with 10" rubber tired wheels. I put some old forklift rims on it and set it outside on the asphalt. One week later the wheels had sunk in about 3/4". Same with my scrap bins. They have 4 legs with steel pads. Every time I move them they have left a new depression in the asphalt.

 

[thermite]

I'd be shocked if the OEM pads are aluminum. Last I saw they're cast iron or steel. If new ones are Al then Haas haas (sic) gone mad...

Damned short journey, that...

 

[Milland]

I have a rolling cart with 10" rubber tired wheels. I put some old forklift rims on it and set it outside on the asphalt. One week later the wheels had sunk in about 3/4". Same with my scrap bins. They have 4 legs with steel pads. Every time I move them they have left a new depression in the asphalt.

I'm glad the paving at my place isn't so soft. It's around 2" of asphalt over compacted dirt, and it's been surprisingly robust and rut free over the last ten years. My major issue is where there's some cracking due to vegetation trying to reclaim the area.

 

[thermite]

I'm glad the paving at my place isn't so soft. It's around 2" of asphalt over compacted dirt, and it's been surprisingly robust and rut free over the last ten years. My major issue is where there's some cracking due to vegetation trying to reclaim the area.

Funny thing is, if it but had more TRAFFIC, it cudda self-sealed the cracks the vegetables are utilizing. Even WITH traffic, yah gots to top-coat seal the crap now and then. Or wish you had.

Pittsburgh. Pee Aye. Got all tangled-up in a funding impasse over one of their new bridges about half a century or so back. By the time they resumed construction, they had to tear OUT the asphalt on the entrance ramps and re-pave.

Left without traffic kneading it, flexible pavement WILL dry-out, mini-crack, then FAIL from water ingress and freeze-thaw cycles. Biology follows. Roots are grand hydraulic "engines". They reclaim the aggregate, same as they've been doing to mountains and such, a billion years or so and counting.

Whole different animal from "rigid" pavements AKA cementitious concretes. Each one has its place. Not 100% interchangeable, all applications, nor even the only two choices.

See "Alcan highway". Built summer of 1942, still had 1800 miles of ignorant waterbound MacAdam AKA gravel, summer of 1967. Wasn't enough "spare" money in North America to finish paving it until 1992 - fifty years in. Double-hammer winter/summer in the cruel North is a right bitch on anything made by the hand of man. And that's just the balmy SOUTH! NORTH slope is good practice for Mars.