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No Headstock Pump Flow

Ja_cain

New member
Happened to notice I wasn't getting any flow through the site glass the other day and decided to pull the filter. Lot's of crap/sediment in the bottom of the filter housing. Replaced the filter and still wasn't getting flow. Decided to pull the headstock cover and after a hour of messing with it figured out how it coupled to the input shaft. Pulled pump and found sheared spring pin on the pump shaft. Supposed to be a dowel pin. Haven't used the lathe a whole hell of a lot since I powered it up, but still hoping I didn't do any lasting damage. Going to replace the spring pin with the correct dowel pin. What is the best way to test spindle bearing wear? Half tempted to chuck up a long price of bar stock and apply some force and measure the chuck with an indicator. Any ideas would be great and much appreciated.PXL_20211214_164040397.jpgPXL_20211214_164116180.jpgPXL_20211214_171730312.jpgPXL_20211214_184136777.jpg

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Cyclotronguy

Active member
Looks like someone has had their way with that pump before. As long as it's out it might be a good idea to check it for flow and pressure.
 

texasgeartrain

Active member
I do think you want the oil pump working, but firstly I wouldn't panic. Think of a headstock like a large manual transmission or other gear box, many or most dont use an oil pump for bearings. The gears sling oil like a son of gun.

On these type things, oil pump is more critical for the clutches like the spindle brake you have there.

I don't know L & S, but I would guess there is a preload tension, perhaps by feel on spindle. Chances are if you can read something on indicator, your adjustment would be out. If bearings were torched from lack of lube there would be noise also.
 

Ja_cain

New member
I do think you want the oil pump working, but firstly I wouldn't panic. Think of a headstock like a large manual transmission or other gear box, many or most dont use an oil pump for bearings. The gears sling oil like a son of gun.

On these type things, oil pump is more critical for the clutches like the spindle brake you have there.

I don't know L & S, but I would guess there is a preload tension, perhaps by feel on spindle. Chances are if you can read something on indicator, your adjustment would be out. If bearings were torched from lack of lube there would be noise also.
Unfortunately none of the gears touch oil in the sump. I think they did this to limit oil foaming/aeration. It doesn't sound any louder than when I first fired it up with fresh oil. Good point about the spindle clutches. I'm just glad I caught it when I did. Definitely going to chuck a long shaft up and see if I get any movement on the indicator.

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4GSR

Active member
Unless some one has screwed with the spindle on your Lodge, I wouldn't touch it at all!
Once you get the oil pump back to running and oil circulating, do some test cutting using a good piece of HSS and shoot for a fine finish on a long piece say 3" OD x 12-15" long any good steel without using the tailstock. Use a 4-jaw only. 3-jaw chuck will not hold material firmly for test cutting. This should tell you if you are having any spindle bearing problems. Look for out of roundness, jumpiness in cutting, of course carriage can cause this too!. But finish is the key.

The old spindle bearings in those L & S's are stout and not forgiving and don't run fast enough to cause any damage in the lower speeds. Now, if you run in the high speed range, I suspect that high speed intermediate reverse gear and bearings will go long before a spindle bearing will ever think about giving up!
 

4GSR

Active member
Thinking about this sheared pin on the oil pump. I'm a little disturbed about this. Off hand that doesn't look like a typical gear pump made by Brown & Sharp or Bardon that I've seen. Maybe I'm not looking at it right. Don't recall them using a pin to drive the pump, usually a "screwdriver" end inserted in a end notch on the spindle shaft. I've also seen a few pumps that are driven by a key on the shaft. Wonder if this could be changed to a keyed shaft? Another question of concern, if you change that to a solid pin, how is it going to be held in place? I would replace the roll pin with a Spiral Roll pin instead of a typical spring roll pin. Would provide much more pin in shear that a standard roll pin. McMaster-Carr should have them. Ken
 

Ja_cain

New member
Thinking about this sheared pin on the oil pump. I'm a little disturbed about this. Off hand that doesn't look like a typical gear pump made by Brown & Sharp or Bardon that I've seen. Maybe I'm not looking at it right. Don't recall them using a pin to drive the pump, usually a "screwdriver" end inserted in a end notch on the spindle shaft. I've also seen a few pumps that are driven by a key on the shaft. Wonder if this could be changed to a keyed shaft? Another question of concern, if you change that to a solid pin, how is it going to be held in place? I would replace the roll pin with a Spiral Roll pin instead of a typical spring roll pin. Would provide much more pin in shear that a standard roll pin. McMaster-Carr should have them. Ken
My parts diagram shows a 1/8" by 3/4" Danley Dowel. I forgot take a pick of the diagram. 319. When I googled that it showed a dowel pin. Not sure what the difference is between that and the 318 straight pin.PXL_20211214_165211653.jpg

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4GSR

Active member
I would advise against using any kind of dowel pin. Need to ID that Danley pin. Like I said previously, I'd put a Spirol roll pin in there if anything at all. The fear I have with any kind of dowel pin is in time, it will work loose and work itself out of the hole. It gets back to why the pin sheared off in the first place. Ken
 

Ja_cain

New member
I would advise against using any kind of dowel pin. Need to ID that Danley pin. Like I said previously, I'd put a Spirol roll pin in there if anything at all. The fear I have with any kind of dowel pin is in time, it will work loose and work itself out of the hole. It gets back to why the pin sheared off in the first place. Ken

It can't work itself loose. It's confined inside the bore of that hollow shaft that the pump shaft goes into. I think it's a coaxial setup so the pump always spins regardless of whether the chuck is engaged, in neutral or the brake is engaged. I'll definitely look for a spirol pin though. The filter was pretty dirty and there was a lot of sediment in the housing. Probably from rust and other stuff that was stirred up. I wonder if the pump was generating way to much head pressure and it just sheared when I was playing around with the higher rpm settings the other day. Was just doing short bursts. Anyway, I'll find the url for the Danley pin when I get a chance. Really appreciate your help on everything Ken.

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4GSR

Active member
Here's another pin I would have selected over the one you are getting.

McMaster-Carr

At least with the ones you are getting, you may have a lifetime supply if needed. If for some reason you start shearing off these pins, you may want to move up to one of the 4140 steel pins. Just a thought. One thing L & S engineers may have intended for the use of a soft pin here to prevent damage to the shaft on the hydraulic pump. The pump shaft does not look to be that hard. I'm sure it is in the 40's on Rockwell C hardness. So your choice maybe the right one. Ken
 

johnoder

Moderator
?You do know about the pipe plug on back up near top? Its for priming the pump

I don't know about all these "little" Lodgies, but the one Ken and I had had no oil in headstock proper - it was all in a down-low-on-back sump on that 20 standard Model X

Sump had TWO sight glasses

DCP_1086.jpg

Seemed silly to me to have oil level way down and pump way up
 

Ja_cain

New member
?You do know about the pipe plug on back up near top? Its for priming the pump

I don't know about all these "little" Lodgies, but the one Ken and I had had no oil in headstock proper - it was all in a down-low-on-back sump on that 20 standard Model X

Sump had TWO sight glasses

View attachment 337222

Seemed silly to me to have oil level way down and pump way up
Yeah, I know about that cap. I was actually filling from there before I realized the pin had sheared. Lol. Those are positive displacement pimps, so they should provide adequate lift. Probably put it up there to make servicing/replacement easier.

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Ja_cain

New member
Here's another pin I would have selected over the one you are getting.

McMaster-Carr

At least with the ones you are getting, you may have a lifetime supply if needed. If for some reason you start shearing off these pins, you may want to move up to one of the 4140 steel pins. Just a thought. One thing L & S engineers may have intended for the use of a soft pin here to prevent damage to the shaft on the hydraulic pump. The pump shaft does not look to be that hard. I'm sure it is in the 40's on Rockwell C hardness. So your choice maybe the right one. Ken
I almost bought the 4140, but wasn't sure. I'm going to call the place the sells the spec'd pin and ask them what alloy it is.

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Ja_cain

New member
Mine has the two in the sump and one up on the headstock that gives you an indication that there is flow. Definitely need to keep an eye on that. Half tempted to add a pressure gauge upstream of the filter.

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4GSR

Active member
The model X John and I had, had a sight glass on the front of the headstock. As long as there was oil flowing thru that sight glass you were okay. I agree with you on adding a pressure gage. To me that gives you a warm feel that you have oil pressure.
 

gbent

Active member
given the design of the oiling system I think a low pressure gage will be required. I would imagine less than 5 psi, less than 2 wouldn't surprise me.

Regarding gear splash of the oil, L&S evidently didn't want the windage loss. In the photos in the first post there is a small fan looking piece in the center of the headstock photo. Oil impinges on that little spinner, and everything that doesn't have a dedicated lube line is sprinkle lubed.
 

Ja_cain

New member
given the design of the oiling system I think a low pressure gage will be required. I would imagine less than 5 psi, less than 2 wouldn't surprise me.

Regarding gear splash of the oil, L&S evidently didn't want the windage loss. In the photos in the first post there is a small fan looking piece in the center of the headstock photo. Oil impinges on that little spinner, and everything that doesn't have a dedicated lube line is sprinkle lubed.
I think everything in the headstock is oiled by that slinger. The line going to it is the only one coming off the filter.

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ratbldr427

Active member
Any time something on the drive of the pump is sheared , the pump must come apart and be inspected. Dosn't take much to lock one up. Since it's mounted above oil level it must be a pd pump. The clearances are very tight in them. Any trash inside then need to find out how it got there.
 








 
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