Noob lathe selection question

[trevj]

Some of the small (1440 size) English lathes will do both metric and inch threads. I have heard that the metric threads are not "exact" but are close enough for practical applications.

Take a good look at the Clausing-Colchester line of lathes to see if they may suit, in the used market.
I bought a used Colchester Master 2500, with a buttload of tooling for pretty cheap through our Military Surplus sales. IIRC, it's 13x40, 2500 rpm top speed, and a pretty solid machine.
The one down side of the Colchester lathes of that era is that they use Gamet bearings of unique sizes only available through them, and they are fairly dear. OK, bloody expensive, actually. But it takes a pretty good effort to ruin them, too.

They are older, but not Old, like the plain bearing old machines.

If the Oil Patch is being beat to hell down there, like it is up here, I would expect that there would be a fair few used machines coming available as shops close down or downsize.

Hard to go too far wrong with new, though. Give a new machine a going over, stone or file off any rough or sharp edges, and get on with making it work for ya.

If you have not found Tony's site www.lathes.co.uk , you could do a lot worse than to bookmark it and have a look through the various machines that he has listed in his archive. He covers most of the 'not chinese import' brands pretty well, and it's a real handy place to take a quick look if you see a machine whose name or model don't ring any bells.

 

[rabler]

Keep in mind you're going to spend money on tooling either way, and that it adds up quickly, although you can do it one piece at a time.

 

[Deude-Mann]

The one down side of the Colchester lathes of that era is that they use Gamet bearings of unique sizes only available through them, and they are fairly dear. OK, bloody expensive, actually. But it takes a pretty good effort to ruin them, too.

So you are saying these lathes are ACTUALLY built like a Swiss watch?

 

[Deude-Mann]

Keep in mind you're going to spend money on tooling either way, and that it adds up quickly, although you can do it one piece at a time.

Yes that is a pretty common sentiment here, and I also hear it frequently from my machinist buddies.

 

[trevj]

So you are saying these lathes are ACTUALLY built like a Swiss watch?

If you have any background in watch making or repair, yeah, pretty much like that!

Decent machines if well take care of, but if you get one that has been buggered up, it can be an expensive path to go down.

I have crossed paths with a fair few Colchester and other "600 Group" lathes, and never seen one with a boogered bearing, but it's still worth knowing.

There have been a couple guys here on PM that have poo-pooed the Colchester machines as noisy, among other issues, but like all machine tools, they too, were built to a price. It was originally a LOT higher price than they have been driven to these days by the ready availability of cheap import machine tools!

If you want something that runs quiet and has power to spare, buy a Monarch, or maybe a Pratt and Whitney model C, or a Holbrook, perhaps. But be prepared to make a hobby out of keeping a big, heavy and old, lathe, running...

Sometimes ya just gotta shrug yer shoulders, and say that "this lathe will work for me!"

As someone else pointed out, Perfect, is the Enemy of Good. Everything in life is a compromise. You have to figure out what you can live with, and live without,

 

[wyop]

Older lathes that I've used to gunsmith:

- South Bend 10L (far more preferred than justified, IMO)
- South Bend Heavy 13 - my preferred SB lathe by far
- Clausing 5913/14 - worked well
- Sheldon 13" lathe - very nice
- Monarch 15" lathe - a little short on the center-to-center length, but it's a very nice machine

In general, if you're looking for an older American machine, I'd look for a machine that can take 5C collects in the spindle (which means a 1.375" spindle bore or more). Lots of gunsmithing is done on fine/small components, and being able to use 5C collects is a big deal in my shop.

Modern lathes: I use a 13x40 variable speed Sharp lathe in my shop now.

As for older American iron in my shop: If I could find a really clean South Bend 13, especially one that is 60" center-to-center (the longer models would work well for shotgun work), I'd snap it up. The 13's only downside (IMO) for gun work is that it's too low for my height - I'd put it on 6" to 8" blocks to bring the work up to where it is comfortable to work.

 

[JonesL]

I've had good luck buying machinery from machine shops that are updating from manual machines to CNC.
Unlike home hobby stuff that may or may not have had good upkeep, machine shops generally keep their machinery well maintained since they're what keeps them in business.
If you go that route, take a level and a straight edge. A machine that's level means they paid enough attention to install it correctly. Cranking the carriage and cross feed will let you know if there are tight and loose spots and if the gibs are adjusted.
Overall appearance; Is it dirty and full of chips, or does it look like they cleaned it up after use?

I tend to stick with US made but there are some pretty good older Jets out there. "Made in Japan" isn't like "Made in China" , or Taiwan, or India.

 

[partsproduction]

I also think that the relationship between metric and imperial is defined exactly by 254/10 or several other combinations

The most common gear change for inch to metric I've experienced has been 100/113 Teeth.

Like cordless power tools, being able to swap inch/metric on a throw of a lever becomes a joy after trying to wash the black oil off my hands so many times after changing gears to get there. My later Nardini is like that, as is my 1950 Sculfort (French) lathe.
Same as cordless because it's a bother, a waste of time slinging power to a hand drill or changing gears on the lathe for 10 minutes (I always figured 15 minute each direction).

 

[GenePoole]

The most common gear change for inch to metric I've experienced has been 100/113 Teeth.

That should be: 100/127

 

[GGaskill]

I think that should be 50/127 as the basic ratio is 1 inch to 2.54 cm.

 

[trevj]

I think that should be 50/127 as the basic ratio is 1 inch to 2.54 cm.

100 and 127 gears make a pairing that is pretty close to the same size. Saves having to find a large diameter idler if the gears interfere.

50 will work fine though. Just going to change some of the other gearing in the train to match the ratio.

Have seen a lot of gear sets that use a 63 tooth gear, too. Imperfect, but adequate for general use for the most part, as a fella that is expecting to produce a NASA part is like to be using tools that are capable of NASA tolerances.

 

[john.k]

In fact ,the 63 tooth gear can be used to produce a far more accurate result than the ratio 50/63 often quoted as a alternative to 100/127....and that is 63/80.

 

[seagiant]

Hi,
Looked awhile for my Lathe wanting American Iron...

Really wanted a SB 13" but never saw one in my area for sale.

A friend found a Clausing 12X36 out of State that he decided to sale and I bought it.

It was made in the 40's and sat unused for years so the wear was not bad and everything worked on it.

It has Timken Roller Bearings in the head, so I can spin it up pretty good for Carbide Tooling.

I have had it for awhile and it does everything I need.

Fixing to rebarrel a 70's Savage 22-250 with a burnt out barrel on it.

Will run it between centers as the Headstock thru hole is only 3/4".

I think a LOT of Gunsmithing is done with the Chi-Com and Taiwan Lathes, but it is up to each one of us to decide how to go.

I'm not rebarreling rifles everyday, and a little more time, or work because I have a 80 year old Lathe, is no problem!

 

[HighWall]

I inherited a Clausing 5914 FULLY tooled up. I'm still learning the machine, but it seems to be really good. Still fully functional, even the speed control, although the previous owner had it set up with a rotary phase converter, which I had to sell along with one of his other machines. I added a VFD and I think it runs smoother.

 

[partsproduction]

That should be: 100/127

I've owned 3 Nardini lathes and I think the pick off gears for the two previous lathes were 100/113, but it's been a while. My latest Nardini doesn't require pickoff changes for all but really obscure LS feeds.

 

[partsproduction]

I just checked an Asian lathe, 120/127.

Most threading doesn't need high precision over long length like a lead screw would, as most threads are short.
However, a receiver to barrel thread, where one is threaded elsewhere and one in another lathe, might be a case where strength is compromised by slight lead or lag even in a short thread.

 

[GGaskill]

I just checked an Asian lathe...

What is the lead screw pitch?

 

[1yesca]

Hi,
Looked awhile for my Lathe wanting American Iron...

Really wanted a SB 13" but never saw one in my area for sale.

A friend found a Clausing 12X36 out of State that he decided to sale and I bought it.

It was made in the 40's and sat unused for years so the wear was not bad and everything worked on it.

It has Timken Roller Bearings in the head, so I can spin it up pretty good for Carbide Tooling.

I have had it for awhile and it does everything I need.

Fixing to rebarrel a 70's Savage 22-250 with a burnt out barrel on it.

Will run it between centers as the Headstock thru hole is only 3/4".

I think a LOT of Gunsmithing is done with the Chi-Com and Taiwan Lathes, but it is up to each one of us to decide how to go.

I'm not rebarreling rifles everyday, and a little more time, or work because I have a 80 year old Lathe, is no problem!

i have one of them its been setting for about 20 years i need to put it back together one of these days

 

[1yesca]

Older lathes that I've used to gunsmith:

- South Bend 10L (far more preferred than justified, IMO)
- South Bend Heavy 13 - my preferred SB lathe by far
- Clausing 5913/14 - worked well
- Sheldon 13" lathe - very nice
- Monarch 15" lathe - a little short on the center-to-center length, but it's a very nice machine

In general, if you're looking for an older American machine, I'd look for a machine that can take 5C collects in the spindle (which means a 1.375" spindle bore or more). Lots of gunsmithing is done on fine/small components, and being able to use 5C collects is a big deal in my shop.

Modern lathes: I use a 13x40 variable speed Sharp lathe in my shop now.

As for older American iron in my shop: If I could find a really clean South Bend 13, especially one that is 60" center-to-center (the longer models would work well for shotgun work), I'd snap it up. The 13's only downside (IMO) for gun work is that it's too low for my height - I'd put it on 6" to 8" blocks to bring the work up to where it is comfortable to work.

one of the nice thing about most of them lathes [don't know about the monarch or the 13 sb] is the short head stock it lets you do muzzle work [ crowning and threading ] on barreled rec. my dads lathe was a logan mod. 1957 he turned a lot of Douglas xx blanks back in the 60's and early 70's

 

[antifaction]

Sorry to revive this old thread but I'm curious what the outcome was. I'm in the same predicamint.