OEM Repair/Inspection Service, equipment destroyed. Who is responsible?

[Hodge]

Well... that's just going above and beyond the call of duty..

We had FedEx destroy brand a new Pelican case, while being shipped from Pelican. Yes, a shipping case, with nothing in it but foam, double packed in a foam-lined box and they smashed a hole through the corner of the box and the case inside.

 

[Laverda]

Back in the early 1980's I worked at a company in Los Angeles. We shipped a lot of packages with an average value of 10K. All were sent by UPS and fully insured. One in ten would get destroyed by UPS. They would never pay any claim as all the destroyed packages were considered "improperly packaged" by them. So we acted dumb and said to UPS could you please help us design a box that will survive and if by chance it gets destroyed, you won't say it was improperly packaged. So UPS helped us design a box built like a tank. Some weeks later one of the new UPS designed boxes was destroyed by them. Their response was it was "improperly packaged". We finally gave up and went with a third party insurer.

 

[standardparts]

We spoke with MC Machinery Regional Manager a little while ago. Now, they want us to send the destroyed FDD back so they can evaluate for repair despite being told numerous times prior that FDDs cannot be repaired as there is no further stock available. ( this has had the board crushed and broken, IOW - it is beyond repair.

They were asked why they sent on our account and the response was that they didn't charge us for the evaluation or ROM swap, so they thought that the best course of action for returning the parts. ( despite being previously told that their membership fee covered this evaluation, so it actually was being paid for )

They were asked about the very lacking packaging and has no response.

They were asked why it wasn't shipped with signature confirmation and had no response.

They were asked why it was not shipped fully insured for replacement should the box disappear (or worse) and were told that they want to know that answer as well.

Personally, I'm very curious to see how they handle themselves and this issue. So far, it has not inspired confidence and has been cagey at best.

I'm going to guess that a lawyer will be earning their keep, shortly. Question still stands though - who actually is responsible for these things?

Looked them up big corporate operation.
If you work through their website, management team info can be found, so you can always work up the chain of command. Likely they will take care of things--they sure have the resources $$$. Lots of places now employ people who simply work from a script but really have no real world knowledge of the industry they service.
You can always source the board and pay for it with a credit card and if they jerk you around dispute the charge. Or spend a lot of time you don't really have on doing a small claims court thing....or a lawyer$$$.
This sort of stuff happens and it's especially tough on a smaller shop which maybe a big corp like your dealing with loses sight of. Hell, looking at the pic of their location and $20K probably only buys a few months of landscaping/facility maintenance.

 

[steve45]

How much do they want for a replacement of the part that was damaged?

 

[EmGo]

You know what, zahn ? You rubbed two old synapses together maybe ... there's actually laws about this stuff. Real laws, which most everyone ignores until an actual attorney points them out.

Find a business lawyer who really knows the commercial code. When you leave stuff with someone, they have a legal responsibility to take care of it. These guys didn't. You have damages. Most likely you can collect but will need all the i's dotted and t's crossed.

Nobody here is going to know this stuff. I'd give you my old attorney's number (one phone call saved me $5,000 1980 at one point, for which I will be forever grateful) but he's senile now. There's got to be another one out there tho.

 

[specfab]

Stuff like this really makes my blood boil. As a general note, typical commercial freight shipment default terms are usually set up such that title to goods being shipped transfers to buyer upon the freight company taking possession, in the absence of other superseding agreements or stipulations. The implication of course is that buyer is then responsible for dealing with freight loss issues. In this case, where goods are sent to a 3rd party for service, and there is an expectation of service and return of goods, particularly where the sender has taken explicit steps to insure and require signed acceptance, I think there is at least an implication of reciprocal behavior on the part of the service provider. There's ample room to make a big stink about this. Good luck.

 

[Zahnrad Kopf]

How much do they want for a replacement of the part that was damaged?

And there's the giant rub...

According to them ( consistently for the last 15 years** ) that specific part very plainly is no longer available. Period. End of discussion. If you need that part, you can NOT have it, but you can purchase an upgrade version. That upgraded version is availablefor $2,462.63. ( AFTER you pay the "membership fee" for Platinum Service, of $2,450.00 ) < so, essentially $4,912.63 >

** - personally gleaned from both MC Machinery Systems over the years, as well as personal friends that went through being forced to consider the "upgrade". Said "upgrade" replacing the FDD (floppy drive) with a USB Floppy Emulator.

There is nothing special about their USB emulator. In reality, what they are charging businesses for is the data transfer of the old format 720Mb disks onto a USB stick. Everyone with experience here knows that they are re-badging (with a sticker) the chinese usb emulators and exorbitantly charging for the data xfer. I have personally visually verified that they are sending the same chinese drives that are WIDELY available for pennies on the dollars that they are charging. Side by side, you cannot tell them apart ( aside from the sticker ) and they have the same parts and boards in them. But when your machine is down and your back against the wall, they have the upper hand in this transfer of a few floppies onto a USB stick and can charge whatever they like. That is ( for better or worse ) "business".

Having said that, it has become apparent that there may be other parts that also got damaged in the shipment, so that dollar amount could be very preliminary.

They received the returned parts today. We shall see how they conduct themselves.

 

[Zahnrad Kopf]

Hell, looking at the pic of their location and $20K probably only buys a few months of landscaping/facility maintenance.

It is much deeper than that. MC Machinery Systems is simply the forward facing face of Mitsubishi Machinery, in America. Size isn't the issue, here.

The issue appears to me to simply be one of someone on their team dropping the ball on packaging a return shipment, dropping the ball on requiring signature delivery, then dropping the THIRD ball of not bothering to insure the shipment ( despite our specifically requesting that it be insured, in early conversations ), and all of that combining with poor handling of the package before the shipment, during the shipment, or even both.

Like most failures, it wasn't ONE giant error that led to disaster. Rather, it was a SERIES of errors that could have EASILY been prevented with even a modicum of responsibility.

 

[Mud]

Like most failures, it wasn't ONE giant error that led to disaster. Rather, it was a SERIES of errors that could have EASILY been prevented with even a modicum of responsibility.

Sign of the times. How many conversations have you had since Covid started about how very few people are trying to do it right. Yet those same people expect you to sweat the small stuff for them.

 

[CarbideBob]

Packaging.
So when I get a new person in packaging they just do not understand what a box may have to go thorough and why all the effort.
My explanation is simple.
"I want to be able to take this box, climb up on the roof of the building and toss it off with no harm. Then you know it is packed and taped right".
Bubble wrap, air pods, peanuts, and tape are cheap. Parts inside are not.
Bob

 

[???]

We spoke with MC Machinery Regional Manager a little while ago. Now, they want us to send the destroyed FDD back so they can evaluate for repair despite being told numerous times prior that FDDs cannot be repaired as there is no further stock available. ( this has had the board crushed and broken, IOW - it is beyond repair.

They were asked why they sent on our account and the response was that they didn't charge us for the evaluation or ROM swap, so they thought that the best course of action for returning the parts. ( despite being previously told that their membership fee covered this evaluation, so it actually was being paid for )

They were asked about the very lacking packaging and has no response.

They were asked why it wasn't shipped with signature confirmation and had no response.

They were asked why it was not shipped fully insured for replacement should the box disappear (or worse) and were told that they want to know that answer as well.

Personally, I'm very curious to see how they handle themselves and this issue. So far, it has not inspired confidence and has been cagey at best.

I'm going to guess that a lawyer will be earning their keep, shortly. Question still stands though - who actually is responsible for these things?

I always follow up telephone conversations with an email saying " as per our discussion" if they read it and don't reply with a denial it has just become an acknowledgement.

 

[???]

Regarding shippers destroying packages. I built a large model of a containrised sub station for ABB that was sent to Russia well packaged. Arrived broken, sent back and repaired under insurance. Repackaged in a stronger wooden crate, came back damaged repaired again at cost. Repackaged in an aluminium foam lined case that bands use for transporting their equipment around the world, arrived damaged. Customer gave up and probably just bodged it up onsite in Russia.

 

[neanderthal mach]

I worked in the freight business for roughly 10 years. That one was specifically set up for high priority / high value freight. What really goes on at the loading and unloading docks would shock anyone. I don't so much blame the people loading and unloading, many of them are extremely good at what there doing. Where the blame should be laid is the corner cutting management who insist on too few at those docks moving far too much in too little time.

Without question fast freight company's such as DHL, FedEx, UPS ect would be even worse. There also the most expensive. Pack your items as if you expect the worst, most times its going to arrive ok, it's the times when it doesn't is when the extra effort pays off. Freight insurance seems to be purposely set up to provide all the loop holes they need to deny most claims or at most pay pennies on the dollar. If it was at a high enough value, I think I'd look into an independent insurance company that isn't affiliated with any freight company and still read the fine print.

 

[EmGo]

Schadenfreude demands that I mention "service and support from a reliable domestic company" here, as well as point to post #27, a fairly typical case of bend over the barrel.

As much as possible, I prefer to do my own.

 

[standardparts]

Looked them up big corporate operation.
If you work through their website, management team info can be found, so you can always work up the chain of command. Likely they will take care of things--they sure have the resources $$$. Lots of places now employ people who simply work from a script but really have no real world knowledge of the industry they service.
You can always source the board and pay for it with a credit card and if they jerk you around dispute the charge. Or spend a lot of time you don't really have on doing a small claims court thing....or a lawyer$$$.
This sort of stuff happens and it's especially tough on a smaller shop which maybe a big corp like your dealing with loses sight of. Hell, looking at the pic of their location and $20K probably only buys a few months of landscaping/facility maintenance.

My post was sort of clumsy and may have inferred I was defending MC...which I was not.
My point was often time BIG companies spawn staff that lives in a world of BIG numbers and lack any motivation to dedicate energy to serving smaller clients.
Have been through similar and sometime it's very hard not to let loose with a Al Pacino rant that usually gets you blackballed.
No doubt it's a bitch looking at what was a perfectly good machine sitting inop due to someone else's carelessness.

 

[Zahnrad Kopf]

No doubt it's a bitch looking at what was a perfectly good machine sitting inop due to someone else's carelessness.

Yes, thank you. That very much sums it all up. Those that know me personally, know that I pride myself for the way our equipment is maintained. The machine ( while admittedly older, now ) is in nothing short of pristine condition and I've gone through some effort to keep it that way so that I can rely upon it's ability to hold single tenths upon demand. ( and less when time and attention allow for such efforts )

So, your observation is decidedly spot-on.

It also turns out that I had forgotten one critical piece of information. ( due to not having to have dealt with it for so many years ) In addition to being 720k, the disks are written in CP/M. Yaaay... <sigh>

 

[EmGo]

In addition to being 720k, the disks are written in CP/M. Yaaay... <sigh>

CarBlob is close to you ? I bet he's got a Northstar Horizon in the shed out back

 

[Mud]

It also turns out that I had forgotten one critical piece of information. ( due to not having to have dealt with it for so many years ) In addition to being 720k, the disks are written in CP/M. Yaaay... <sigh>

Do you know which CP/M format? I had a disk with a format converter utility to read just about every proprietary CP/M disk format onto a DOS formatted disk. I wonder where it is now. I'll bet someone in a yahoo group has it.

 

[alphonso]

Curious to know if this is going to affect delivery of the worm wheel gear you are making for me.

 

[Zahnrad Kopf]

Curious to know if this is going to affect delivery of the worm wheel gear you are making for me.

To some degree it already has, actually. Yours is one of those oddballs we have that tooling isn't commonly available for. So, it was one of the tooling set ups already on the machine when it went down.

The Good News© is that we just received a voice mail from them. They are sending replacement parts right now. I've already requested overnight delivery, signature confirmation, and insurance to cover it all in case it goes the way things have already gone. That, and a little luck might have a machine back in action and making shapes. I'm hoping to get a shipping notification for it all, shortly.