oh boy issue with K&T horizontal 1B

[Truckingmeister]

I picked up a Kearney and Trecker model 1B Universal Horizontal Mill.
The issues I am having and yes I have looked on the internet quite a bit are I cannot find and owners or shop manual for this machine. The friend I got the equipment from had a fire and the information and maint logs went up in smoke. The bigger issue is, according to what I have found is this machine should have a B&S #10 taper. When I measure one of the shafts it was close, not perfect but I was using my veriers and not a micrometer, but never had much of an issue before with that method. I have 1.0555 vs 1.0447 on the small end and 1.298 vs 1.2597 on the large end. I ordered a 310 taper to ER32 collet adapter so I could fix my South Bend Lathe's apron ( I also got from the same person), well it dosn't fit, sloppy as heck. So crap now what?
That adapter measurements are as follows 1.003 small end and 1.2540 on the large end. So there is a little issue there too but I figured it still should work according to the standard spec's of the #10 B&S taper.
It is very hard to find information on this model, is it a rare one or just strange?
Thank you , hopefully I didn't ramble on too much. I also need to find a motor for it but I can save that one for later.

 

[johnoder]

Just very old - there are no "manuals" because it was made before manuals were common.

Here is a scan from about 1917 - 1B is on page Fifty-Eight

http://pounceatron.dreamhosters.com/docs/kt/kt-milwaukee-catalogue19-circa1917-port.pdf

As to taper, a look in Machinery's Handbook (21st edition is on page 1731) will tell you there are 3 versions of the #10 B&S taper -B&S Standard, Milling Machine Standard and Miscellaneous

I picked up a Kearney and Trecker model 1B Universal Horizontal Mill.
The issues I am having and yes I have looked on the internet quite a bit are I cannot find and owners or shop manual for this machine. The friend I got the equipment from had a fire and the information and maint logs went up in smoke. The bigger issue is, according to what I have found is this machine should have a B&S #10 taper. When I measure one of the shafts it was close, not perfect but I was using my veriers and not a micrometer, but never had much of an issue before with that method. I have 1.0555 vs 1.0447 on the small end and 1.298 vs 1.2597 on the large end. I ordered a 310 taper to ER32 collet adapter so I could fix my South Bend Lathe's apron ( I also got from the same person), well it dosn't fit, sloppy as heck. So crap now what?
That adapter measurements are as follows 1.003 small end and 1.2540 on the large end. So there is a little issue there too but I figured it still should work according to the standard spec's of the #10 B&S taper.
It is very hard to find information on this model, is it a rare one or just strange?
Thank you , hopefully I didn't ramble on too much. I also need to find a motor for it but I can save that one for later.

 

[Truckingmeister]

Oh yeah, 3 different versions, yippie Skippy.
Thanks for the information I'll check it out.
Seems like the mill is in fairly good shape, other than the universal for the drive to the table are worn out.

 

[thermite]

Oh yeah, 3 different versions, yippie Skippy.

Yah, well.. B&S tapers are no longer plentiful, regardless.

Clean up the spindle to insure no welts, burrs, or bell-mouth.

Make what yah need to fit whatcha HAVE.

ER will get you started, but is sore limiting as "the only".

ELSE.. if.. you can conjure-up a conversion of that spindle to 40-taper?

You'll have about 1000 times easier go of acquiring all MANNER of inexpensive tooling and arbours, save back the cost easily.

Might seem daft, but #9 B&S is still more plentiful, so yah could sleeve it. They even still make full collet sets for B&S #7 & B&S #9. Brand-NEW. Even if "offshore". Mine are still in the preservative. Had no trouble finding plenty of still-decent B&S # 9 side-lock holders, face & shell mill mounts, arbours, MT adapters, JT drill mounts, etc.

Goods for #10 are scarcer. I think I bumped into B&S #11 more often whilst searching for #9?

Worth it.

Evidence is right in front of you the mill itself is right durable. Rebuildable, too.

Could go another human generation or three?

 

[Truckingmeister]

To step up to the #40 taper, I would assume I have to pull the shaft out and have it machined correctly.
I can pull the shaft but to cut the re-taper right now would be above my skill lever I would think. Haven't done any machining in quite a few years. Yes I was seeing too it's very hard to find the B&S #10 taper, that's why I got excited about seeing the ER adapter, but must be the wrong series #10 taper.

 

[Truckingmeister]

Thing that sucks is I need the mill to fix the apron on the South Bend 16 that I have, The neat thing is that lathe has the taper adapter, so one machine works into the other and the other way around too. Feel like running circles about where to start, but I think I need to run the lathe first to make some bushing any way so maybe I can figure out away to get that adapter to work or make one from it some how. Bushings are worn in the apron of the lathe, I don't think it would hurt making a taper, I know it wont for the bushings as the saddle and compound are tight.
I like to old machines, love working on the old stuff but sometimes really got to work the brain to figure it out some times.

 

[thermite]

To step up to the #40 taper, I would assume I have to pull the shaft out and have it machined correctly.
I can pull the shaft but to cut the re-taper right now would be above my skill lever I would think. Haven't done any machining in quite a few years. Yes I was seeing too it's very hard to find the B&S #10 taper, that's why I got excited about seeing the ER adapter, but must be the wrong series #10 taper.

It is also a "lead pipe cinch" that the spindle needs a touch-up. Do THAT before any further futzing about .. or you aren't likely to get a useful and reliably repeatable fit, even if you make it yourself.

Durable? Indubitably so! "Imortally impervious to wear and damage?
Not really! As with "night ladies", spindle bores take a bit of a beating over time. One "cavity". Many hard insertions done in a hurry!

40-taper conversion would need a slug of metal shrunk-in before machining then precision grinding. Wells-Index might be able to do that affordably. They have long had similar service on their menu for milling-machine spindle conversions.

The 40 taper is so much steeper than B&S, the whole arse-end would be unsupported, otherwise.

I have a 30-taper holder machined to adapt to unaltered #9 B&S spindle by a previous owner.

It "works", but only about the first 3/4" of altered shape - just back of the flange - has any contact with the # 9 B&S bore taper at all.

A 40-taper holder, similarly altered, might "work" for light-duty use on a #10 B&S spindle bore as well. Can't call it a great idea, though.

Whatever ELSE you do, avoid chasing R8 conversion just becase they are so daggone common. R8 has about the same grip as B&S # 7. Read "not very MUCH!"

A horizontal, pound for pound, tends to drive its cutters at around 3 or more times the working force and metal-removal rate than what a comparable mass of vertical mill can support.

Respect that. It can work hard for you.

Or work harm ON you!

 

[Truckingmeister]

Just had a thought, can I buy a #11 taper and still cut it down with a carbide cutter to fit it to the #10 or is that plain stupid. I do understand that normally its ground and polished.

 

[Truckingmeister]

A horizontal, pound for pound, tends to drive its cutters at around 3 or more times the working force and metal-removal rate than what a comparable mass of vertical mill can support.

I didn't know that, only ran vertical mills and lathe years ago, but in joy it a lot.

 

[thermite]

Just had a thought, can I buy a #11 taper and still cut it down with a carbide cutter to fit it to the #10 or is that plain stupid. I do understand that normally its ground and polished.

Hardened and ground to a HIGH degree of precision, actually! Lapped or "polished", not as likely. Hardening generally messes up the finer dimensions. So they pretty much HAVE to be final ground.



Not to worry. They do not HAVE to be all that hard for lighter-duty use, can last long years, anyway.

If you are going to cut a #10 taper, just start with decent steel, stock shape.
4XXX pre-hard for most. I'd prolly use 8620 "ordnance steel" and simply case-harden it. That is what 8620 it is alloyed to be GOOD at.

Starting with a #11 only make it more difficult. Not less!
How did you plan to HOLD a tapered shape AND put turning POWER into it, anyway?



A patient craftsman can get by with decent tooling, abrasives, blueing,.. I did say "patience"?

Keep yer eyes open "right here, on PM" for folk who might have a spare or two.

Make a habit of checking ebay periodically. Be prepared to MODIFY #10 goods, rather than making from scratch.

My Ellis DH makes good use of a modified #9 B&S face-mill holder, f'rinstance. Waaay lower mass and space needed to grab a workpiece than mounting its heavy threaded-spindle chuck. "Basic" Dividing Heads are for positioning, then locked or clamped, not for high-torque turning "in motion". So it's good enough.

 

[Truckingmeister]

Cool Thank you. I have learned tons of this site already. Thank you so much.
And Hey , Merry Christmas too yet

 

[JST]

So.... what is it that you are trying to fit? Arbors? Presuming you are not a business with machining deadlines at the moment, you can just make the arbors to fit.

I made several to fit a mill I have that takes an MT3 taper. Not that different from some of the B&S in general size etc. Takes a bit of fiddling to get the taper set up, but then you can turn out several arbor blanks. make an extra or two.

After that is done, you can choose your arbor diameter, and go to town. You will likely want the size for whatever gear cutters you will use, 7/8" or 22mm (maybe?) etc. Other sizes of 1 1/4" and maybe 1" would be handy. The 1 1/4" fits a number of common cutters.

While you are at it, make at least one drill chuck holder, and a couple of end mill holders for your common sizes. Why waste a good setup?

4140 is a good material for them. I prefer to use the prehardened.

 

[thermite]

Cool Thank you. I have learned tons of this site already. Thank you so much.
And Hey , Merry Christmas too yet

61 years since I was first PAID to mangle metal for my crust, not just study on it, and I generally learn something useful here ..... every single day of the week.

Including the subtle nuances of congenital asshole management.
That's right useful, given the inordinate surplus in the general population!

PM actually has fewer than average. They are just better AT it!
Such is life amongst professionals as are SERIOUS about whatever they do!

 

[Truckingmeister]

For right now I need to swing a boring bar to straighten out some some bores and fix an over sized bore for a standard bushing that was made too loose from years ago from someone else. I was going to make a bushing to fit it correctly instead of staking and green lock tight, being I get it done correctly too. Its on the pinion shaft on the hand wheel on the lathe. And then bore and bush some of the other shaft holes that are starting to show wear. That is where I wanted to start. I agree too, once set up I was going to make a few arbors for the mill, maybe I should make more than I was thinking as they could get used up fast?

Oh just a side question, where you guys getting your metal supplies from? Local suppliers or on line for the metal to be turned?

Thank a ton again. You have all been very helpful.

 

[thermite]

For right now I need to swing a boring bar to straighten out some some bores and fix an over sized bore for a standard bushing that was made too loose from years ago from someone else. I was going to make a bushing to fit it correctly instead of staking and green lock tight, being I get it done correctly too. Its on the pinion shaft on the hand wheel on the lathe. And then bore and bush some of the other shaft holes that are starting to show wear. That is where I wanted to start. I agree too, once set up I was going to make a few arbors for the mill, maybe I should make more than I was thinking as they could get used up fast?

Oh just a side question, where you guys getting your metal supplies from? Local suppliers or on line for the metal to be turned?

Thank a ton again. You have all been very helpful.

"Really Local" I can only get structural stuff - A36 & similar plate, Ell, square, round or rectangular tube, channel, etc. Not TOO far off, even structural and architectural stainless. "Industry" is more Richmond or Baltimore than metro DC, so there ain't much here.

Pragmatically? It's even more the "piddly-little order" problem.

So I sort out what I SPECIFICALLY need, then .. check a few "remaindermen" that often have it as salvaged & "drops" (Moses B. Glick & bearing-Bronze, for one) ELSE order it from Speedy, Online, or a couple of similar ones that are set-up to do small order service over the wire.

And pay a premium over what a "production" or fab shop can get in volume from their regular suppliers.

No help for it. As said, it is the "piddly little order" barrier most of all.

I don't need a truckload of 12 or 20 footers just because it is far cheaper by the ton than it is by the foot or by the inch.

To the good, there are lots of outfits doing a good job of getting goods TO you, even if they ain't cheap. Already Blanchard ground steel, Aluminium alloy fixture plate, perfed Stainless.. most things can be found "online", and with lesser minimum order amount than was once the case - especially since Wuhan Flu hit.

 

[Truckingmeister]

ok sounds good, I was thinking the same thing that I would have a
hard time getting decent pricing for these projects. I think I will try local first also, as I would like to give them the Business if I can and fall back to the internet.

 

[Paolo_MD]

Check eBay as well.

Paolo

 

[thermite]

ok sounds good, I was thinking the same thing that I would have a
hard time getting decent pricing for these projects. I think I will try local first also, as I would like to give them the Business if I can and fall back to the internet.

Unless.. you are into "exotics", alloy-wise, most steels are waay cheaper than your TIME. Even if you are a retiree and there is no "wage" involved, your time at least has value relative to "do one thing with it", yah can't then-also "do some OTHER thing with it"! Nor buy "spare" or buy-back wasted.

Quantities are small enuf, shipping cost, "minimums", how easily and safely the online process works, how reliably and SOON yah actually get it... all can end-up being more important than the metal price itself.

Ebay? Yahbut. "Real" metal suppliers who ALSO use eBay. And they have their OWN websites, nearly always.

Just open the ebay "see other items". If it is more metals & such? Worth a deeper look.

One 17" length of alleged-Bronze drop as could be brass or anodized shiney-wood TUBE, then used tennis shoes, stockings, concert posters, vintage hair-dryers, and hair-bow ribbons for pets?

Not a good source!

 

[johnoder]

To quote myself...

As to taper, a look in Machinery's Handbook (21st edition is on page 1731) will tell you there are 3 versions of the #10 B&S taper -B&S Standard, Milling Machine Standard and Miscellaneous

Easy to see whats what in the exhaustive coverage in such as American Machinist's Handbook from 1940...on page 798 and 799

Yes, the small end is 1.0446, and yes the taper is .5161 per foot, or .043008 per inch. Plain B&S is 5" deep, while MMS is 5 11/16 deep

Making the big end 1.28921

Miscellaneous more so at 6.219 deep = 1.31206 big end

 

[Truckingmeister]

So the tool I ordered then is more than likely a standard taper but mine is probably longer then. That would
explain that issue. But I should be able to make an adapter to make it work or is that not gonna happen with my limited skill level? I had thought about sucking the collet adapter tight to the face of the spindle and make up some key blocks to hold it to temporarily use the collet adapter. But that surly isn't a fix!

So for now the best I can do is get some stock and make some taper and spindle tooling to get it going and see how that goes. Nothing like jumping in with both feet huh.