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Okuma Genos m560-v

I think that the problem lies in distribution not the builders. And frankly end users who are not willing to pay for chip management. The MB can have full wash and great conveyors but as we have discussed here before are the end users willing to pay $25-30K for chip management on top of the price of the machine? That being said, the MB and the Genos version do have some steep corners for not having full wash as a standard feature.

I hear you. I'm always surpised how much people are upset about $20k for something that is imperative in the machining process. I also understand that it's a lot more money than they should be. I got our quote with the washdown. It is expensive but so is time messing with the augers and cleaning out chips. I might end up rigging up my own washdown unit. We'll see. I want to keep the door rails, the tool changer door and way covers clear of chips. A chip fan can help but I also want to have dedicated air/coolant washdown in those areas. From what Ive seen, they are the biggest offenders. If we can build automation equipment from scratch, I don't see chip washdown kicking our asses haha
 
I got our quote with the washdown.

AFAIK, for the early machines it wasn't even an option.

I would kill for automatic greasing, and washdown coolant, but was assured that neither option was available ~4 years ago. That was supposed to be the whole point of the GENOS line, entry level machines that can be priced aggressively because they only come in standard packages.
 
I think that the problem lies in distribution not the builders. And frankly end users who are not willing to pay for chip management. The MB can have full wash and great conveyors but as we have discussed here before are the end users willing to pay $25-30K for chip management on top of the price of the machine? That being said, the MB and the Genos version do have some steep corners for not having full wash as a standard feature.

To be fair, Okuma offers cabinet washdown and a shower gun. Problem is, they want (as per my quote from April) about $5000 for it.

Odd, as it seems chip management is just about the only complaints I ever see of them M560-V, you figure Okuma USA could solve all that and give up some margin by bringing the price on one option down to earth (it’s $500 for a Fuji pump and some hardware).
 
To be fair, Okuma offers cabinet washdown and a shower gun. Problem is, they want (as per my quote from April) about $5000 for it.

Odd, as it seems chip management is just about the only complaints I ever see of them M560-V, you figure Okuma USA could solve all that and give up some margin by bringing the price on one option down to earth (it’s $500 for a Fuji pump and some hardware).

Aren't you happy I pushed the wash gun?
 
Aren't you happy I pushed the wash gun?

You didn't have to push it on me, Drinkwater made that sale!

But you also wanted a reasonable amount of money for a factory integrated, clean, non-hacked, easy to use wash gun. If you had wanted $2000, it would be a very different matter. Though - that Japanese garden hose nozzle is pretty neat!
 
I remember having this same conversation with you... now about the tiny coolant tank :)

I think Yamazen is done with the tiny coolant tank, and everything is getting the 150L now?

Which is kinda my point about Okuma USA - they should order the M560-V from the factory with the chip wash down system and just make it standard. But, Yamazen is way better at integrating customer feedback and working with the factory to make continuous improvements to the offering.
 
I think Yamazen is done with the tiny coolant tank, and everything is getting the 150L now?

Which is kinda my point about Okuma USA - they should order the M560-V from the factory with the chip wash down system and just make it standard. But, Yamazen is way better at integrating customer feedback and working with the factory to make continuous improvements to the offering.

Still on the S500 14 tool machine.
 
I think Yamazen is done with the tiny coolant tank, and everything is getting the 150L now?

Which is kinda my point about Okuma USA - they should order the M560-V from the factory with the chip wash down system and just make it standard. But, Yamazen is way better at integrating customer feedback and working with the factory to make continuous improvements to the offering.

I bought the ‘budget’ S500, if you could call it that. I like that most of the machines come already set up with nice options like the CTS prep, wash down, I think autolube. But it’s also nice that a smaller guy like me can wiggle the price down quite a bit with options I can easily live without.

Apply that idea to the Okuma if you will. I’m glad I let people talk me into some things I really didn’t think were worth it when the dollar signs were adding up, because in the long run they are worth the cost. I think most people benefit from the suggested package of any MTB, whatever that may be, as long as those suggestions are rooted in a good and honest foundation.
 
...you figure Okuma USA could solve all that and give up some margin by bringing the price on one option down to earth...

I know I'd have more Okuma machines if it wasn't for their userous "options" pricing, but I'm sure they've done the calculations and calculated that the extra profit from their padded options for basic functionality more than outweighs the sales they are losing as a result. Their business, so it's not any of my business, but all their off-the-shelf options are marked up about 300% and they won't budge on them.

*shrug*
 
I know I'd have more Okuma machines if it wasn't for their userous "options" pricing, but I'm sure they've done the calculations and calculated that the extra profit from their padded options for basic functionality more than outweighs the sales they are losing as a result. Their business, so it's not any of my business, but all their off-the-shelf options are marked up about 300% and they won't budge on them.

They don't budge because they are profit taking from their strategy to fill the void left by DMG Mori when they stupidly decided to take the Dura Vertical out back and shoot it for no discernible reason. Okuma saw that opportunity to slot in and fill that void as the Go To premium option for a general purpose 40x20 mill. Go back to 2013-2016 and you'll see guys with these things landed on the shop floor with nice options (probing/4th) for about $120k; that was Okuma giving up margin to put these things on floors that would cement their reputation.
 
I realize the M560 is a helluva machine, but in the $140k price range for a 40x20 vmc, there’s lots of other excellent machines that could be considered....Mazak, Mori, Matsuura even.
 
AFAIK, for the early machines it wasn't even an option.

I would kill for automatic greasing, and washdown coolant, but was assured that neither option was available ~4 years ago. That was supposed to be the whole point of the GENOS line, entry level machines that can be priced aggressively because they only come in standard packages.

The washdown is a $5K option now. The automatic greaser isn't listed in their quote as an option AFAIK. Seems like Okuma could easily do that, and maybe they will in time. For now it'll be a minor inconvenience.
 
Chip management is one thing I can get around. I'm most nervous about the ceramic bearings. I've heard some stories about light crashes that absolutely trash the spindle. Okuma's website has comments on the control info page. One person wrote in "Invalid tool height calculations are a common problem with this control. This control does not use "machine coordinates" to calculate tool lengths. It instead uses the "Work coordinates" which many times has a Z value in there. The operator needs to remember to either zero out the work offset first or call up a dummy offset like G15H0. If the operator does not do this, they will CRASH the machine."
Anyone else have thess issues?
 
Chip management is one thing I can get around. I'm most nervous about the ceramic bearings. I've heard some stories about light crashes that absolutely trash the spindle. Okuma's website has comments on the control info page. One person wrote in "Invalid tool height calculations are a common problem with this control. This control does not use "machine coordinates" to calculate tool lengths. It instead uses the "Work coordinates" which many times has a Z value in there. The operator needs to remember to either zero out the work offset first or call up a dummy offset like G15H0. If the operator does not do this, they will CRASH the machine."
Anyone else have thess issues?

I have a job shop and we often run two or more different jobs per machine per day, so that is a lot of switching tools, work coordinate updates, different fixtures, etc.. and have NEVER had anything like that happen. All tools are touched off in the internal Renishaw setter and offsets and fixtures are probed with the built in Renishaw probe. We have had way more issues with someone fat fingering an offset on our Fanuc machines (we set tool height offsets on a presetter) than on the 560's. The probe and touch setter interfaces are very simple and even have pictures that show you what each option does. Very nice system and easy to use.
 
I have a job shop and we often run two or more different jobs per machine per day, so that is a lot of switching tools, work coordinate updates, different fixtures, etc.. and have NEVER had anything like that happen. All tools are touched off in the internal Renishaw setter and offsets and fixtures are probed with the built in Renishaw probe. We have had way more issues with someone fat fingering an offset on our Fanuc machines (we set tool height offsets on a presetter) than on the 560's. The probe and touch setter interfaces are very simple and even have pictures that show you what each option does. Very nice system and easy to use.

That's reassuring. I just don't see Okuma cutting corners like that. I'll be getting the machine with the probing system as well, so that makes me feel better.
 
.......I'm most nervous about the ceramic bearings. I've heard some stories about light crashes that absolutely trash the spindle.

Not Okuma specific....

I've seen a couple pretty horrible crashes on spindles with ceramic bearings and they survived them. Likely reduced the overall life expectancy, but no immediate problems. Both went several more years before needing new spindles.
 
Not Okuma specific....

I've seen a couple pretty horrible crashes on spindles with ceramic bearings and they survived them. Likely reduced the overall life expectancy, but no immediate problems. Both went several more years before needing new spindles.

I agree. HAAS uses ceramic spindle bearings. One of mine suffered a 12k rpm crash 3 or 4 years ago.
Bad enough that it changed the pitch and volume of the sound the spindle makes, pretty drastically.
I figured I would be lucky to get through the rest of the job that was in the machine at the time (a couple days).
That dang spindle is still hanging tough! And, I do not baby it.
 
I agree. HAAS uses ceramic spindle bearings. One of mine suffered a 12k rpm crash 3 or 4 years ago.
Bad enough that it changed the pitch and volume of the sound the spindle makes, pretty drastically.
I figured I would be lucky to get through the rest of the job that was in the machine at the time (a couple days).
That dang spindle is still hanging tough! And, I do not baby it.

Just to add to the group-think here...

Two ceramic-spindle Mori's at a place I do some work for and both of them have been crashed hard multiple times. Most recently with a 2" insert face mill at full rapid speed into the hard movable jaw of a Kurt vise, throwing the Z-axis off by about 150-thou.

The machine definitely sounds different now, but it keeps on 'truckin and has been for a few months since the crash, and it was first crashed several years ago and has held up fine since.
 
I know this thread is a little old, but was hoping not to start a new one for one quick question. I was told by someone (who I hope simply doesn't know what he's talking about) that the M560 cannot use G code programs. I realize Okuma has always had a great conversational system, but hard for me to believe that you can't program off-line and download G code. Should be easy question for someone in the know.
 








 
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