OLD 1992 VF0 Help - BT40 to CAT40

[antonio5005]

Hello everyone, new guy here.

I was recently recommended to come visit this forum as I might find better support for the machine I have. Rumor has it several people on here have machines similar to mine. I've got a 1992 VF0, the one that has the plastic enclosure, I'd say it's in good shape for the age.

Well it is currently setup for BT40 and I'm wanting to swap it out to CAT40. Below is a copy and paste from another forum where I was suggested to bring it over here as I might find more help...



Copied Post #1...

Hoping someone can help me out. I’ve got a 1992 VF-0 with a 16 tool carousel that is currently BT40 that I’d like to switch to Cat40.

I’ve searched other threads and haven’t had much luck finding info on the setup I’m using. They talk about swapping the extractor fingers and installing the dog key either on top or bottom of the extractor fingers to accommodate the different sized holders. It’s basically an assembly that consists of the fingers, keys, springs and hardware.

Unfortunately... mine doesn’t use this type of assembly. Instead of “fingers” it is a single piece clip in the shape of a wishbone. The tool holder forces theses fingers to move outwards and then they snap back into place around the tool.





I was hoping to just buy new fingers and reassemble but not sure how this type of setup works. Is anyone familiar with this setup and know what may be needed to swap to Cat40? I would assume different clips but unsure if the whole plate needs swapped. Thanks

Copied Post #2...

Haven’t had much luck with this. Haas tech said it was too old and therefore they didn’t have a lot of info on it. Recommended not swapping since they don’t have parts/info on it.

So, I decided to design my own. Its completely designed and ready to machine, just curious if anyone knows of a good suitable material? A coworker recently recommended 4140 and then heat treat. Claimed the heat treat would prevent it from fatiguing when the clips expands outwards multiple times. Sounds good, I’m fine with heat treating too but wondered if that was overkill or if there’s a better material to use.

Does 4140 sound reasonable? Heat treat? Any other material suggestion?

Here’s pics inside showing the clip and how it rides. It’s filthy in there, I’ll be cleaning it out before too long.







I've also been suggested 5160 spring steel and heat treated.

Also, since these posts were made, the HFO contacted me and said they can get me the clips but they are $75 a piece and they don't have any info or drawings on the swap. Said no thanks. Figured I could make them for WAY less than that. At this point, I've measured EVERYTHING and it seems flipping the assembly upside down and changing the Z height for a tool change would work and not cause any interferences. Just have to get the clips machined at this point.

Thoughts?

 

[Stirling]

Hello everyone, new guy here.

I was recently recommended to come visit this forum as I might find better support for the machine I have. Rumor has it several people on here have machines similar to mine. I've got a 1992 VF0, the one that has the plastic enclosure, I'd say it's in good shape for the age.

Well it is currently setup for BT40 and I'm wanting to swap it out to CAT40. Below is a copy and paste from another forum where I was suggested to bring it over here as I might find more help...



Copied Post #1...

Hoping someone can help me out. I’ve got a 1992 VF-0 with a 16 tool carousel that is currently BT40 that I’d like to switch to Cat40.

I’ve searched other threads and haven’t had much luck finding info on the setup I’m using. They talk about swapping the extractor fingers and installing the dog key either on top or bottom of the extractor fingers to accommodate the different sized holders. It’s basically an assembly that consists of the fingers, keys, springs and hardware.

Unfortunately... mine doesn’t use this type of assembly. Instead of “fingers” it is a single piece clip in the shape of a wishbone. The tool holder forces theses fingers to move outwards and then they snap back into place around the tool.


View attachment 322615


I was hoping to just buy new fingers and reassemble but not sure how this type of setup works. Is anyone familiar with this setup and know what may be needed to swap to Cat40? I would assume different clips but unsure if the whole plate needs swapped. Thanks

Copied Post #2...

Haven’t had much luck with this. Haas tech said it was too old and therefore they didn’t have a lot of info on it. Recommended not swapping since they don’t have parts/info on it.

So, I decided to design my own. Its completely designed and ready to machine, just curious if anyone knows of a good suitable material? A coworker recently recommended 4140 and then heat treat. Claimed the heat treat would prevent it from fatiguing when the clips expands outwards multiple times. Sounds good, I’m fine with heat treating too but wondered if that was overkill or if there’s a better material to use.

Does 4140 sound reasonable? Heat treat? Any other material suggestion?

Here’s pics inside showing the clip and how it rides. It’s filthy in there, I’ll be cleaning it out before too long.

View attachment 322616

View attachment 322617

View attachment 322618

I've also been suggested 5160 spring steel and heat treated.

Also, since these posts were made, the HFO contacted me and said they can get me the clips but they are $75 a piece and they don't have any info or drawings on the swap. Said no thanks. Figured I could make them for WAY less than that. At this point, I've measured EVERYTHING and it seems flipping the assembly upside down and changing the Z height for a tool change would work and not cause any interferences. Just have to get the clips machined at this point.

Thoughts?

A quick Google brought this website up.
They may be worth contacting for grippers and useful pointers.

I’m sure it’s as easy as changing the parameters for the tool action,
Changing all of your pull studs
And possibly changing your grippers?

Have you tried hand loading a cat40 tool in? Not sure the stud grab point is in the correct location even.?

CAT40 vs BT40 3 Main Differences between BT40 and CAT40 Tool Holder

 

[AJ H]

For what purpose?

 

[antonio5005]

For what purpose?

Several reasons for me. I have access to a large amount of cat40 tool holders, cat40 holders have been easier to find, cat40 would allow me to grow into a newer machine without purchasing new tool holders. These tool clips have never been changed and from what i understand they are considered a wear item. Figured I can replace them now to be on the safe side and swap to cat40 while I’m at it. And can probably do it cheaper than $75 a piece, $1200 total for something I could do for less than $100. I have a few BT holders, enough to make new clips, but would rather not add anymore unless I just absolutely have to. Would rather have Cat40.


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[antonio5005]

A quick Google brought this website up.
They may be worth contacting for grippers and useful pointers.

I’m sure it’s as easy as changing the parameters for the tool action,
Changing all of your pull studs
And possibly changing your grippers?

Have you tried hand loading a cat40 tool in? Not sure the stud grab point is in the correct location even.?

CAT40 vs BT40 3 Main Differences between BT40 and CAT40 Tool Holder

Thanks for suggestions. I tried hand loading a Cat holder into the BT, not saying it won’t go but I Can’t get it to snap into the clip by hand. Would need a little leverage or something for sure. It would be a ridiculously tight fit. And pull studs would have to be changed for the Cat holders, no way around that I don’t think.


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[magno_grail]

My VF-1 has BT40. I have 4 new and 1 slightly used CAT40 forks that I would be happy to trade for as many BT40 forks that you are willing to let go of.
No need to change studs, that has no effect on the carousel, not sure about the clamp block
over the fork. I put a CAT40 holder in my machine but not in the carousel because of the fork difference. The width of the groove is different.
Yes, you probably have to change parameter 64 for the tool height.

 

[antonio5005]

My VF-1 has BT40. I have 4 new and 1 slightly used CAT40 forks that I would be happy to trade for as many BT40 forks that you are willing to let go of.
No need to change studs, that has no effect on the carousel, not sure about the clamp block
over the fork. I put a CAT40 holder in my machine but not in the carousel because of the fork difference. The width of the groove is different.
Yes, you probably have to change parameter 64 for the tool height.

Thanks mango, I may take you up on your offer if I can get these clips machined.

I just purchased some 5160 to test out, hopefully this spring steel will be good enough without heat treat. Took a file to the BT clip, I don’t think is hardened, made an easy groove on the side.

Program and design have already been made, tools are ready, just need material. The model I made looks very similar to the BT clip but with a larger diameter. Pretty much did some comparisons between holders and diameters and clip and came up with something I think will work.


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[magno_grail]

The CAT40 forks are 0.240" thick. Maximum diameter for the holder is 2.397". I have not checked the hardness but they ring slightly when knocked together.
One has a tag on it: 22-7066A which might be the Hass number.

 

[antonio5005]

The CAT40 forks are 0.240" thick. Maximum diameter for the holder is 2.397". I have not checked the hardness but they ring slightly when knocked together.
One has a tag on it: 22-7066A which might be the Hass number.

Thanks for measuring that! Here’s what I’ve measured on the BT40 clip. Please excuse my poor drawing skills, I’m not very artistic. So, the thickness is the same, is your 2.397 diameter referring to my 2.178 dimension? Crossing my fingers as that’s the mystery dimension I’m looking for. And yes that is the exact part number for the cat40 extractor. 20-7166 is BT40

Edit: Noticed a mistake on the drawing and corrected.

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[kustomizer]

They still list them and the BT40, for the price I would buy the ct's and sell your bt's to get a few bucks back
EXTRACTOR, CT40 UMBRELLA T/C FINGER PRE S/N 6701 | Carousel Plate Components | Umbrella | Automatic Tool Changer | Find Replacement Parts | Haas Parts | Genuine OEM Haas Automation(R) Parts Factory-Direct

EXTRACTOR, BT40 UMBRELLA T/C FINGER PRE S/N 6701 | Carousel Plate Components | Umbrella | Automatic Tool Changer | Find Replacement Parts | Haas Parts | Genuine OEM Haas Automation(R) Parts Factory-Direct

 

[antonio5005]

They still list them and the BT40, for the price I would buy the ct's and sell your bt's to get a few bucks back
EXTRACTOR, CT40 UMBRELLA T/C FINGER PRE S/N 6701 | Carousel Plate Components | Umbrella | Automatic Tool Changer | Find Replacement Parts | Haas Parts | Genuine OEM Haas Automation(R) Parts Factory-Direct

EXTRACTOR, BT40 UMBRELLA T/C FINGER PRE S/N 6701 | Carousel Plate Components | Umbrella | Automatic Tool Changer | Find Replacement Parts | Haas Parts | Genuine OEM Haas Automation(R) Parts Factory-Direct

The guy I talked to at the HFO was surprised they even had them. I asked if they were $75 a piece or for a set, my gut knew the answer but I just wanted to make sure, well it was per piece. I couldn’t do it, too much for a hobbyist, wanna-be machinist, with a very old and rare machine. If I was making good money on it, maybe it’d be worth it but right now every penny I can save can go somewhere else on it.


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[antonio5005]

They still list them and the BT40, for the price I would buy the ct's and sell your bt's to get a few bucks back
EXTRACTOR, CT40 UMBRELLA T/C FINGER PRE S/N 6701 | Carousel Plate Components | Umbrella | Automatic Tool Changer | Find Replacement Parts | Haas Parts | Genuine OEM Haas Automation(R) Parts Factory-Direct

EXTRACTOR, BT40 UMBRELLA T/C FINGER PRE S/N 6701 | Carousel Plate Components | Umbrella | Automatic Tool Changer | Find Replacement Parts | Haas Parts | Genuine OEM Haas Automation(R) Parts Factory-Direct

Somehow I completely missed the selling part you suggested. I’ll keep that in mind, that’s not a bad option if I can’t get anywhere else with it. Thanks for that


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[magno_grail]

Yes, your 2.178" dimension is 2.397" on the CAT40. The overall width is 3" +/- .002", the opening is 2.350"-2.355". Your 0.435" dimension is 0.324"
All the mounting dimensions are the same.
Last time I asked the price a couple years ago it was $53 each. I thought it was to much at the time.

 

[antonio5005]

Yes, your 2.178" dimension is 2.397" on the CAT40. The overall width is 3" +/- .002", the opening is 2.350"-2.355". Your 0.435" dimension is 0.324"
All the mounting dimensions are the same.
Last time I asked the price a couple years ago it was $53 each. I thought it was to much at the time.

Thank you magno_grail for doing that, that is some great information! That is a big help for me! I’m hoping, if all goes well, I’ll have 1 to test out this weekend. If it tests good I’ll order more material to finish the rest. Fingers crossed. Thanks again!!!


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[kustomizer]

Somehow I completely missed the selling part you suggested. I’ll keep that in mind, that’s not a bad option if I can’t get anywhere else with it. Thanks for that


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My fear in making them is that the part at risk is the spindle, sometimes the tool holders stick pretty hard in the spindle putting a lot of stress on that little part, the ones you have sell for almost twice the price of the ones you need. Anyhow, good luck!

 

[magno_grail]

I found putting carnuba wax on the tool holder taper works well to keep them from sticking in the spindle.
You can try selling them but BT40 are far less common here than CAT40 so there is not much demand and you have to find someone willing to pay that much for them.

 

[antonio5005]

Well, got one made, I planned to make and test 2 versions. Unfortunately my bandsaw blade broke while trying to cut the 2nd one, so for now, I only have one made. 5160 spring steel. Once I make one that I’m satisfied with I’ll assemble, test, and make more.

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[kustomizer]

Nicely done, keep us in the loop as you progress.

 

[antonio5005]

Nicely done, keep us in the loop as you progress.

Thanks! I do plan to post the results of this thing as soon as it all comes together. Maybe it’ll help someone out later on.


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[ducesrwld]

if i were in your shoes i'd leave the thing alone especially as a hobbyist. like mentioned before bt40 is dwarfed by cat40 tooling wise but that lends to gettting bt40 cheaper on the used market as it isn't as desired. have at the custom part project but a bt40 machine isn't the end of the world. i've got a couple hundred bt40 holders sitting on the shelf if you need some and decide to stay with the bt40 setup hit me up.