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On The Hunt For a Sim 5 Axis - Need Your Input! Okuma, Mazak, DMG or Doosan ??

The okuma is a hell of a machine - clearly. We've now been to see a few shops running the DMU50 and a university running the okuma.

The fit and finish on the DMU is incredible.

That does factor in from a marketing perspective, we have customers coming through the shop alot.


The spindle power on the Mazak has put me off of it, once the extras are all added in, its on par with the rest of the machines and the support here is not as good as the other machines.


For the post processor we're looking to go with master cam as they have better support here in WA.


From a tooling perspective would you suggest going with the BT40 big plus? Or HSK? The HSK might be a bit better for the constant high speeds? Is there a big cost difference?



From a tooling perspective would you suggest going with the BT40 big plus? Or HSK? The HSK might be a bit better for the constant high speeds? Is there a big cost difference?

Which spindle have you selected for DMU 50 (3rd gen)
? ~ that has a "Bearing" on HSK vs Big plus IMO + taking into account the type of work you need/want to do.

They have a high torque + high power 15K rpm spindle - but I'd be wary of spindle bearing diameters (worth double checking ! :smoking: )- [They may have improved that]. It used to be on the NVX verticals they (DMG- Mori - (Seiki really - in this case) ) have those machines more optioned out with very powerful spindles - leaning towards CAT or BT 50; for a while they had trouble with too smaller spindle (diameter bearings) on 40 taper equivalents i.e. toooo much power. At one time they vehemently pushed people to buy (the NVX vertical (flag ship 3 axis mori seiki vertical) as a 50 taper machine and not sell it as 40 taper (equivalent) until they introduced a larger diameter newer tougher spindle bearing - even though they are trying to make the machine fulfill the double duty role as a mold-class machine ?

The spindles are mainly Mori Seiki design and build , but more recently DMG-Mori's plant in Poland has been making some new and interesting spindles too.

But from what you say having a (mazak variaxis) i-600 tricked out to equivalent (specs) as a DMU 50 3rd gen would price wise come to about the same amount of dollary doos.

But frankly very different beasts IMO*.

It is the DMU 50 3rd gen where're talking about here not the regular DMU 50 (2nd gen) ?

The newer - 3rd gen having all those [German expressionist cinema - slightly sinister slanted stealth angles on the front and sides of the "sheet metal" :)] ?

I know folks that are MORE than happy with the DMU 50 3rd gen - for sure ( nice surface finishes and contouring too for near mold like work in easy materials ).

Unfortunately sexy looks of a machine doooooo transmit some sort of real or imagined capability to some customers... even thought the 5 axis (tool ) grinding machine looking beaten to hell cost nine times as much and achieves far higher tolerances for certain applications lol

It's the parts not the machine :willy_nilly: (other than ergonomics and various "productivity" benefits ) blah blah blah and support - as you say @LukasD

(The parts that come off the machine not the machine itself- obvi) - but yeah does suck to spend a ton of $ on a non descript retro-looking beige box as if from the Mothra/Godzilla 1960s era - trying to make a customer understand why the weird beige box YASDA is waaaay more accurate and expensive than the flashy DMG mori CMX or DMU is a tough sell... (until you get into discussions of tolerances and materials and critical processes.).
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~ Power and rigidity have to go hand in hand a bit and some machines with over-powered spindles really doooo have the capability to tear the machine apart.
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* mothra-vs-Godzilla.jpg . Godzilla-vs-Mothra-2.jpg

^^^ clicking activities cause visual enlargement 日本語指導

Different "Beasts" DMU 50 3rd gen vs. Mazak i-600 (variaxis) : [Mothra vs. Godzilla ].
 
Mazak c-600 ?




Via John Hart Australia (channel) Mazak C-600

But Mazak US "Mid-West" tech center - presentation





Mazak C-600, (shorter version)

VARIAXIS C-600

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I'm (personally) not so sure about the C-600 as it is a "C" frame, really Ram style like the Doosan DVF 5000 and the DMU 50 3rd...

The GOOD thing about the variaxis i-600 is that it's not a "C" frame ram style it's a large trunnion supported both ends (trunnion orientation goes side to side for good ergonomics i.e. can get close to the table without having to lean over the support bearing of a "Knuckle trunnion". ) ram - "Style" not as accurate/rigid with a fully extended Y axis on the spindle assembly as compared to a modified gantry machine with a sideways mounted trunnion -(perhaps).

OTOH a bad crash might be more easily taken up by a C frame ram style machine.

(Knuckle / trunion "knunion ?" only moves rotationally obviously / not obviously ).


I believe the C-600 might be geared to potentially more powerful spindles and specifically ease of automation / robotics.

Not sure how the C-600 prices out ?

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To AI or not to AI ?

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Just for the heck of it FUN cutting demo on the i-600,

perhaps noticeably less room to play with - some nice moves in the video. Camera is mounted to the spindle assembly so it appears the Tunnion moves hither and yon but trunnion does not move about in linear directions (in "real life") .

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DMU-50 3rg gen vs. Doosan DVF 5000 vs MAZAk C-600 or i-600 ? or VS ?
 
a little suggestion. When you're negotiating a machine to buy, get them to throw in a machine model for vericut. They will have one, and it's not going to cost them a nickel go give you a copy, but if you wait until you've signed on the dotted line, they will try to squeeze a small fortune out of you for it.
And Vericut is worth having for 5X work.
 
a little suggestion. When you're negotiating a machine to buy, get them to throw in a machine model for vericut. They will have one, and it's not going to cost them a nickel go give you a copy, but if you wait until you've signed on the dotted line, they will try to squeeze a small fortune out of you for it.
And Vericut is worth having for 5X work.

every vendor i've dealt with has given me cad models at no cost, not even mention of cost. even on used machines we've bought. who's charging you for that? i'd complain to the higher ups.
 
every vendor i've dealt with has given me cad models at no cost, not even mention of cost. even on used machines we've bought. who's charging you for that? i'd complain to the higher ups.

i don't want to name names, but one of them rhymes with Lazak and the other with Rori Meiki. Lazak wanted close to $10k for an Integrex vericut model.
 
i don't want to name names, but one of them rhymes with Lazak and the other with Rori Meiki. Lazak wanted close to $10k for an Integrex vericut model.

On current Mazak machines you just download the models right off the control. The mindset of Japan in regards to CAD has changed quite a bit in the last few years.
 
On current Mazak machines you just download the models right off the control. The mindset of Japan in regards to CAD has changed quite a bit in the last few years.

I know you have spent time at various MAZAK installations and HQ,

+ automation on some of their turning centers,

Have you spent any time on a (integrex) J-200 with a tail stock ? (no counter spindle) ?

[Kinds on-topic/ off topic].

J-200 tailstock.jpg

^^^ (clickable) ~ trying to understand if there are any gibs or eccentrics if one had to "manually"* take out taper for cutting a longer (precision) shaft ?

I think it's an MT 4 live center on a J-200 - that's 40" between centers

I think some of the MAZAK machines (5/B axis mill turns) have or use a separate set of trucks and rolling element slides for their tail stock assemblies ?

Any idea on that @CNC Hacker ?

- I know you guys get hands on with a lot of different MAZAK models but not sure how often you see a J-200 or J-300 versus an(integrex) i-200

Please and thank you and no worries if you haven't.

Ta.

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* I think I have seen an assembly that looks like a spindle cartridge that almost appears surface mounted with 4 screws with what looks more like a stator coupling ? - can't find a pic of it ?

- wonder if there is a hack for that or really obvious work around I'm missing here ? And no I am not @Harry Maboff.

Digital interpolation along X and Z is not the end of the word but was wondering if the foundation or machine frame wander-about a smidge or trucks under tail stock become slightly mis-aligned (from being hit or hard use/ rando bumps / crashes ) if there was an on-tail-stock set of adjustments for that ? (I know it's not a Studer grinder, but some sort of fine adjustment might be good if it exists ? ).
 
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I may be talking out of turn but you are using the Doosan, Mazak and DMU 50 together. To the best of my knowledge the DMU 50 is only available as a 3+2 machine, not simultaneous action. I thought the OP was only interested in simultaneous 5 axis? Or did the conversation go another direction and I missed it?

Charles
 
I may be talking out of turn but you are using the Doosan, Mazak and DMU 50 together. To the best of my knowledge the DMU 50 is only available as a 3+2 machine, not simultaneous action. I thought the OP was only interested in simultaneous 5 axis? Or did the conversation go another direction and I missed it?

Charles

DMU 50 3rd gen is definitely sim 5 axis.

Not sure what you would have to do to spec it out as non-sim 5 axis DMU 50 3rd gen :-)

The DMU 50 3rd gen up from the original DMU 50 really went waaay more up market and spendy. Perhaps justifiably so ?

definitely not a sub $250K machine. leaning more into $400K with a well equipped DMU 50 3rd gen.

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DMU 50 3rd Generation

DMU 50 3rd Generation (US)

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@CBlair maybe it's the CMX 50 U that "U" might be thinking of , not that I make any assumptions about what someone is thinking of course :-)

CMX 50 U - 5-axis milling from DMG MORI

The CMX 50 U is position only ~ Although if machine is 4+1 it's surprising what can actually be done in terms of chamfering / breaking edges. A lot of things you'd think can only be done sim 5 seems the machine and cad/cam software sometimes make the "Call" and only drive 4 axes simultaneously ,like complex chamfering of edges but all in one plane can be done 4+1.

I think Op's requirement was or kind of got the impression of mainly positional with maybe 20% or less sim - 5 axis , but I may be wrong.
 
Ok had to go back and look it up, it is the CMX U 50 that is only positional rather than simultaneous 5 axis. I cant really keep up with all the different abbreviations they use.

Charles
 
Ok had to go back and look it up, it is the CMX U 50 that is only positional rather than simultaneous 5 axis. I cant really keep up with all the different abbreviations they use.

Charles


Yup I totally agree [quite an alphabet soup with a lot of shifting models, specs and spindles - , I think the older DMU 50 2nd generations could be specc'd as positional ( I may be wrong there ).].

The Variaxis i-600 (by contrast) has been made for quite a long time now, with incremental improvements. Even though MAZAK's normal websites have a truly bewildering array of different machines that frankly take a long time to learn what MAZAK even sells.

I think MAZAK now sometimes have a completely separate website for a given new model roll out to make things perhaps less confusing and more straight forward.
 
I know you have spent time at various MAZAK installations and HQ,

+ automation on some of their turning centers,

Have you spent any time on a (integrex) J-200 with a tail stock ? (no counter spindle) ?

[Kinds on-topic/ off topic].

View attachment 326855

^^^ (clickable) ~ trying to understand if there are any gibs or eccentrics if one had to "manually"* take out taper for cutting a longer (precision) shaft ?

I think it's an MT 4 live center on a J-200 - that's 40" between centers

I think some of the MAZAK machines (5/B axis mill turns) have or use a separate set of trucks and rolling element slides for their tail stock assemblies ?

Any idea on that @CNC Hacker ?

- I know you guys get hands on with a lot of different MAZAK models but not sure how often you see a J-200 or J-300 versus an(integrex) i-200

Please and thank you and no worries if you haven't.

Ta.

___________________________________________________


* I think I have seen an assembly that looks like a spindle cartridge that almost appears surface mounted with 4 screws with what looks more like a stator coupling ? - can't find a pic of it ?

- wonder if there is a hack for that or really obvious work around I'm missing here ? And no I am not @Harry Maboff.

Digital interpolation along X and Z is not the end of the word but was wondering if the foundation or machine frame wander-about a smidge or trucks under tail stock become slightly mis-aligned (from being hit or hard use/ rando bumps / crashes ) if there was an on-tail-stock set of adjustments for that ? (I know it's not a Studer grinder, but some sort of fine adjustment might be good if it exists ? ).

I've never actually ran a J series Integrex, we pretty much only sell the I series in my region. I pulled a manual to see how the tailstock works on the J, there are 2 different designs for the 500u and 1000u bed length, but they both adjust the same basic way. The center is in an eccentric sleeve, so you loosen 3 bolts and then put a spanner on the sleeve to adjust for taper. Most Mazak tailstocks have a similar adjustment mechanism, the exact details vary depending on the model.

The tailstock will ride on it's own set of rails separate from the other axes.
 
I've never actually ran a J series Integrex, we pretty much only sell the I series in my region. I pulled a manual to see how the tailstock works on the J, there are 2 different designs for the 500u and 1000u bed length, but they both adjust the same basic way. The center is in an eccentric sleeve, so you loosen 3 bolts and then put a spanner on the sleeve to adjust for taper. Most Mazak tailstocks have a similar adjustment mechanism, the exact details vary depending on the model.

The tailstock will ride on it's own set of rails separate from the other axes.

Ahhhh thanks a million - I really appreciate that - Big time - Phew. :)

Our local sales guy (really good guy) has gone, - to better pastures I think, and probably would have taken weeks to get an answer to that through more normal channels. Assuming a new sales person / sales engineer position had been filled + trained .

Definitely owe you a beer on that one,(thanks for looking that up).

:cheers:

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For me I think that works out better than having a counter spindle. J-200 1000U ; the Turning and milling spindle on the (integrex) i-100 are quite similar to the J-200 (integrex). [I didn't see necessarily the need for a counter spindle unless one has a bar feeder and parts catcher an' all that] - probably better for later dedicated more automated machines for greater output/volume - with any luck. ].
 
I went head to head against and okuma 460-5ax in an impeller test cut. Heidenhain destroyed the okuma. Maybe it was the engineer, maybe the machine, I don't know.
I've never done anything on an Okuma mill but love their mill-turns from personal experience. Cant say enough good about quality iron and longevity.
I believe their rotaries use spiral bevel gears. The MU-10000 i used to watch running 5000 lb impellers were whisper quiet. Can't say that about Hermle's obnoxious gear drives.
HSK-120 on that Okuma:ack2:
 








 
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