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On The Hunt For a Sim 5 Axis - Need Your Input! Okuma, Mazak, DMG or Doosan ??

i disagree that kern would be a bad business decision. if compressor wheels are the ONLY thing he's doing, i'd argue its an IDEAL machine to go with. i've had Kern do a demo for us at my old job. without divulging any confidential information, that machine would PRINT money just doing compressor wheels if you had the volume.
I've heard about the x400u going up against Kern in the turbo machining market. It didn't end well for them.:D
 
O/T
Matsurra's have actuated centers on their MAM and Cublex mills.

That's nice but doesn't really help with a 40" part (at least for me lol) + runout on the 5 axis table ... + turning rpm .

But Hey - MAM and Cublex are very good at being MAM(s) and Cublex-es. (Cublecies ?). :-)
 
SO! We just settled on this:

DMU 75 monoBLOCK Universal 5 Axis Milling Machine
• Heidenhain TNC620 - FULL 5 AXIS Simultaneous Control with CELOS
• Speedmaster 20,000Rpm 35Kw (130Nm) spindle with HSK63A Taper
• 60 Tools ATC
• Production package 40 bar/23 l/min, 600 l tank, Paper Filter, Through coolant
• Rotating clear-view window
• Coolant ring jet
• Spray pistol with pump 2 bar/40 l/min
• Cooling air blast
• Infrared measuring probe Heidenhain (HSK63A)
• Tool measuring in machining area Blum Laser
• 3D quickSET
• Signal lamp 4-colour
• Tropical package (ambient temp. max. 50 °C)
• ATC (Application Tuning Cycle for fine tuning tool path/finish/accuracy
• Safety package for power failure
• Documentation 1 English
• Electric circuit diagram English
• Screen Text Language
• Screen display English
• 3D Data Model for Cad-Cam Simulation
• 3 Year Factory warranty on SpeedMaster Spindle
• 2 Year Factory Warranty on Machine as standard
• Free Delivery (FOT Conditions)
• 5 Days Training on this machine with a Factory trained Engineer

Came in at pretty much the same price as the DMU50 would have once all the extras this has were added on. Boss wanted more capacity so we can do engine block/cylinder head work in the future. I'm hoping that we'll still get the part access we need for the bulk of our jobs without having to go bananas on getting the parts away from the table.

It seems to have all of the 'nice to haves' included in the package? - The 3D image file of the machine is included in the purchase.

Would the general consensus be that VERICUT is a must have? I know the cam (We're going to use MasterCam - they seem to have the best support here) has some kind of collision detection but that's like asking someone to mark their own test right?

Huge thanks to everyone for their input, so grateful for the input. This would have been an absolute minefield without all the help :smitten:
 

Which spindle have you selected for DMU 50 (3rd gen)
? ~ that has a "Bearing" on HSK vs Big plus IMO + taking into account the type of work you need/want to do.

They have a high torque + high power 15K rpm spindle - but I'd be wary of spindle bearing diameters (worth double checking ! :smoking: )- [They may have improved that]. It used to be on the NVX verticals they (DMG- Mori - (Seiki really - in this case) ) have those machines more optioned out with very powerful spindles - leaning towards CAT or BT 50; for a while they had trouble with too smaller spindle (diameter bearings) on 40 taper equivalents i.e. toooo much power. At one time they vehemently pushed people to buy (the NVX vertical (flag ship 3 axis mori seiki vertical) as a 50 taper machine and not sell it as 40 taper (equivalent) until they introduced a larger diameter newer tougher spindle bearing - even though they are trying to make the machine fulfill the double duty role as a mold-class machine ?

The spindles are mainly Mori Seiki design and build , but more recently DMG-Mori's plant in Poland has been making some new and interesting spindles too.

But from what you say having a (mazak variaxis) i-600 tricked out to equivalent (specs) as a DMU 50 3rd gen would price wise come to about the same amount of dollary doos.

But frankly very different beasts IMO*.

It is the DMU 50 3rd gen where're talking about here not the regular DMU 50 (2nd gen) ?

The newer - 3rd gen having all those [German expressionist cinema - slightly sinister slanted stealth angles on the front and sides of the "sheet metal" :)] ?

I know folks that are MORE than happy with the DMU 50 3rd gen - for sure ( nice surface finishes and contouring too for near mold like work in easy materials ).

Unfortunately sexy looks of a machine doooooo transmit some sort of real or imagined capability to some customers... even thought the 5 axis (tool ) grinding machine looking beaten to hell cost nine times as much and achieves far higher tolerances for certain applications lol

It's the parts not the machine :willy_nilly: (other than ergonomics and various "productivity" benefits ) blah blah blah and support - as you say @LukasD

(The parts that come off the machine not the machine itself- obvi) - but yeah does suck to spend a ton of $ on a non descript retro-looking beige box as if from the Mothra/Godzilla 1960s era - trying to make a customer understand why the weird beige box YASDA is waaaay more accurate and expensive than the flashy DMG mori CMX or DMU is a tough sell... (until you get into discussions of tolerances and materials and critical processes.).
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~ Power and rigidity have to go hand in hand a bit and some machines with over-powered spindles really doooo have the capability to tear the machine apart.
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* View attachment 326812 . View attachment 326813

^^^ clicking activities cause visual enlargement 日本語指導

Different "Beasts" DMU 50 3rd gen vs. Mazak i-600 (variaxis) : [Mothra vs. Godzilla ].

I love this comparison, I vividly understand the point you're getting across. I like to think we've been able to look under the skirt of these machines enough to get a good grasp on what's generally going on. The DMG has a ton of local (literally across the road) support and people here love them. Mazak does look great but the local support isn't nearly as strong. Also the heidi controller seems to be the go for what we're chasing. Plus, at this stage I am really emotionally invested in the decision we have made so chasing more validation than 'facts' and 'valid alternatives' hahaha
 
SO! We just settled on this:

DMU 75 monoBLOCK Universal 5 Axis Milling Machine
• Heidenhain TNC620 - FULL 5 AXIS Simultaneous Control with CELOS
• Speedmaster 20,000Rpm 35Kw (130Nm) spindle with HSK63A Taper
• 60 Tools ATC
• Production package 40 bar/23 l/min, 600 l tank, Paper Filter, Through coolant
• Rotating clear-view window
• Coolant ring jet
• Spray pistol with pump 2 bar/40 l/min
• Cooling air blast
• Infrared measuring probe Heidenhain (HSK63A)
• Tool measuring in machining area Blum Laser
• 3D quickSET
• Signal lamp 4-colour
• Tropical package (ambient temp. max. 50 °C)
• ATC (Application Tuning Cycle for fine tuning tool path/finish/accuracy
• Safety package for power failure
• Documentation 1 English
• Electric circuit diagram English
• Screen Text Language
• Screen display English
• 3D Data Model for Cad-Cam Simulation
• 3 Year Factory warranty on SpeedMaster Spindle
• 2 Year Factory Warranty on Machine as standard
• Free Delivery (FOT Conditions)
• 5 Days Training on this machine with a Factory trained Engineer

Came in at pretty much the same price as the DMU50 would have once all the extras this has were added on. Boss wanted more capacity so we can do engine block/cylinder head work in the future. I'm hoping that we'll still get the part access we need for the bulk of our jobs without having to go bananas on getting the parts away from the table.

It seems to have all of the 'nice to haves' included in the package? - The 3D image file of the machine is included in the purchase.

Would the general consensus be that VERICUT is a must have? I know the cam (We're going to use MasterCam - they seem to have the best support here) has some kind of collision detection but that's like asking someone to mark their own test right?

Huge thanks to everyone for their input, so grateful for the input. This would have been an absolute minefield without all the help :smitten:

I'm surprised they are using the TNC620 control, I thought the TNC640 was the better 5ax control.
 
Sounds like a nice machine. Any Rum drinks included with the tropical package?

Vericut may seem a little pricey, but it only takes one crash to have a machine that'll never run right again. How much is that worth?
 
I've heard about the x400u going up against Kern in the turbo machining market. It didn't end well for them.:D

i heard rumors, but have yet to see it myself :P
pissed that my old place missed out on the X400 deal that went to Milterra :(
 
SO! We just settled on this:

DMU 75 monoBLOCK Universal 5 Axis Milling Machine
• Heidenhain TNC620 - FULL 5 AXIS Simultaneous Control with CELOS
• Speedmaster 20,000Rpm 35Kw (130Nm) spindle with HSK63A Taper
• 60 Tools ATC
• Production package 40 bar/23 l/min, 600 l tank, Paper Filter, Through coolant
• Rotating clear-view window
• Coolant ring jet
• Spray pistol with pump 2 bar/40 l/min
• Cooling air blast
• Infrared measuring probe Heidenhain (HSK63A)
• Tool measuring in machining area Blum Laser
• 3D quickSET
• Signal lamp 4-colour
• Tropical package (ambient temp. max. 50 °C)
• ATC (Application Tuning Cycle for fine tuning tool path/finish/accuracy
• Safety package for power failure
• Documentation 1 English
• Electric circuit diagram English
• Screen Text Language
• Screen display English
• 3D Data Model for Cad-Cam Simulation
• 3 Year Factory warranty on SpeedMaster Spindle
• 2 Year Factory Warranty on Machine as standard
• Free Delivery (FOT Conditions)
• 5 Days Training on this machine with a Factory trained Engineer

Came in at pretty much the same price as the DMU50 would have once all the extras this has were added on. Boss wanted more capacity so we can do engine block/cylinder head work in the future. I'm hoping that we'll still get the part access we need for the bulk of our jobs without having to go bananas on getting the parts away from the table.

It seems to have all of the 'nice to haves' included in the package? - The 3D image file of the machine is included in the purchase.

Would the general consensus be that VERICUT is a must have? I know the cam (We're going to use MasterCam - they seem to have the best support here) has some kind of collision detection but that's like asking someone to mark their own test right?

Huge thanks to everyone for their input, so grateful for the input. This would have been an absolute minefield without all the help :smitten:

It's a nice machine/ lovely machine for many many reasons.





@Lukas D definitely get one of these ... ^^^^ to go with your machine to make it "Go-better" .

^^^ What they call volumetric calibration (system) but that IMO is a bit of a misnomer, really it's a through-the-volume calibration refinement; (in metrological terms it would be called an "in field calibration refinement (system) ".). Which has special test artifact- gizmo / gauging bar that goes through the volume + set of quai-automated routines / "HMI" on the control.

The main reason the machine needs that is because of an unusual linkage as part of the structure of the machine. (it has some interesting advantages IMO and weaknesses but the weaknesses are largely cancelled out or mitigated but the "VCS" - "volumetric compensation system " - assuming they got their "Math" right - which in this case I think they probably have :-)

DMU test artifact.jpg <--- click to enlarge

^^^ CF Bar with gauge balls and fittings etc. * + hand wavy brochure like relativistic non-absolute - "Metrics"


DMU 65 75 Mb linkages.jpg < --- click to enlarge.

^^^ So I don't know the (proper name ) for this 'extended" cantilevered saddle, but it's not supported other than hanging on by it's finger nails from the triangular wedge like casting that runs to-and-fro on the mono-block casting.

With the sheet metal on it gives the illusion of a bridge style machine or traveling column machine but instead it has this long linkage. However I think that mass and linkage is good in terms of weight and inertia "Into the part". And because it's not monstrously rigid but not overly "floppy" either it seems to be fairly crash resistant, i.e. the spindle head and cantilevered extension can tolerate being bashed about or be pretty forgiving for various bumps, big bumps and minor crashes. So more "Mothra" less "Godzilla" - but frankly very rigid and powerful machines are not fun to crash and can be super expensive to put right. I think that in part is why the Ram-style on a bridge layout has persisted so long in Germany as that seems better for more hands on work (high mix very low volume) - and the machines won't so readily destroy itself through operator error.

Some of the filtration options on that machine seem quite good to very good,

Ergonomics are super and for sure you can put giant fixtures for all kinds of things (you'll probably need those) + the Z travels and working volume (vertically is really good) so you should be able to doooo some engine blocks work of a certain size and a certain precision. [Thumbs up]

The machine on 3 legs concept is good and it is a very nice looking machine from the front and is pretty compact if you have the height. Obviously those feet must not cross a floor joint which is not a problem for most.


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* The only complaint I've heard about the larger DMU monoblocks is the accuracy drift and trouble with generating a tighter more stable process - but bear in mind the machine has a LARGE working volume with longer linkages it's not surprising, (at least for the base model version of the machine.). Soooo seems DMG Mori actually did something to actually fix an inherent problem to the line :-) :-) :-) **

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** Off Topic --- > HAAS UMC 500 --- > That's why I don't buy that for example the HAAS UMC 500 can't actually be fixed and be ironed out by engineers that are worth half their salt. HAAS has the $ and resources to fix those problems but so far chooses not to. That's a choice not an inevitable reality (I get that there may be institutional hurdles to that.).
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O/T
Matsurra's have actuated centers on their MAM and Cublex mills.

To re-iterate / clarify or amplify points made also by other PM forum members ,

A vertical machining center that has turning capability is not the same a turning center that has milling capability - even if said 5/B axis mill in some cases is built more like a travelling column mill as in the case of MAZAK integrex ( like i-100, 200, 300 400 etc and J series ).

So super interesting what DMG mori are getting up to to attempt to take a bite out of the MAZAK integrex price performance "Ratio" ...


Not sure how the CTX or CLX ? 450 TC prices out ? ^^^ ? Interesting campaign "Guys get a room... no wait a minute you build machines together (cough cough) .
 
I love this comparison, I vividly understand the point you're getting across. I like to think we've been able to look under the skirt of these machines enough to get a good grasp on what's generally going on. The DMG has a ton of local (literally across the road) support and people here love them. Mazak does look great but the local support isn't nearly as strong. Also the heidi controller seems to be the go for what we're chasing. Plus, at this stage I am really emotionally invested in the decision we have made so chasing more validation than 'facts' and 'valid alternatives' hahaha

I'd never in a million years push you or nudge anyone or suggest or whatever anyone to purchase something that is not well supported in a particular geographical region (by whatever potential means.) in some cases some MTBs and vendor / support networks are better at supporting clients at much greater geographic distances - it's not always the case the vendor has to be a stone's throw away when technicians may have to be flown in from further afield at some non-trivial expense where they have a restricted practical time limit to solve a complex problem, for which there may only be time and $ to fix in a very cursory way. ).

Plus, at this stage I am really emotionally invested in the decision we have made so chasing more validation than 'facts' and 'valid alternatives' hahaha


^^^ Never do that ... (I totally understand - in the most real and kind terms :) ).

In the horse trade there's an old adage "Easily bought - hard to keep ".

IMO (yes - I know I am wearing pointy pope hat - (it's a rental BTW) - and "pontificating" off a 'High" horse (depending on your definition of "High") but the DMG Mori sales staff and selling environment is worth it's weight in gold. They are VERY good at getting people to sign on the dotted line while all misty-eyed and in love* with the "potential" and "possibilities". I think when people run into issues and problems (later on) and have a bit of a DMG Mori "Hang-over" that's when the severe cognitive "Dissonance" sets in. And to many when things go really pear-shaped with DMG Mori in other regions it feels like a real visceral and emotional betrayal - (for some). BEST IMO to remove yourself from that space entirely and deal with things in a very neutral and considered way over a longer period of time (if possible). Some folks are naturally able to navigate those kinds of problems in amore positive and tolerant/ cooperative way, but sometimes intractable problems do crop up. [I'm always of the mind set to turn a negative into a positive and I always see the potential opportunities there - but sometimes when the budget runs out and you are nearly out of "Runway" then you can't always take these kinds of risks to inadvertently put yourself permanently behind the 8-ball.].

Just get to the point where you are bored to death of these machines and then you can see what's really what and how that fits for what you really need business wise or technically (for more specific engineering applications).

@Lukas D - That's very very nice that DMG Mori has an excellent reputation in your area and seems there are many happy customers / partners. - assuming that's long standing (More than a decade) rather than a new "Break out" territory for DMG Mori in your part of Australia ? [Sounds promising.].

_____________________________________________________________________


* There's very few perfect situations - of course - and up to the individual to weigh up the pros- and cons. No one can really say do this , buy that , do that and so on as they are not you and are not living in your shoes. ~ But there are some things that can be navigated and traversed more easily by at least sharing information.
 
To re-iterate / clarify or amplify points made also by other PM forum members ,

A vertical machining center that has turning capability is not the same a turning center that has milling capability - even if said 5/B axis mill in some cases is built more like a travelling column mill as in the case of MAZAK integrex ( like i-100, 200, 300 400 etc and J series ).

So super interesting what DMG mori are getting up to to attempt to take a bite out of the MAZAK integrex price performance "Ratio" ...


Not sure how the CTX or CLX ? 450 TC prices out ? ^^^ ? Interesting campaign "Guys get a room... no wait a minute you build machines together (cough cough) .

That CLX 450 TC is really just a new smaller addition to the CTX TC line, which has been around for more than a decade. Not sure why it's called CLX, probably just to differentiate it from the "premium" line. They used to have a CTX 450 TC which was really a Mori machine, much smaller work envelope, redesigned and replaced by the NTX 1000 2nd generation.

Not really sure that this is intended to take a bite out of Mazak's anything, they have been direct competitors in this space for a very long time and there are probably not too many more Integrexes in the wild than CTX TC / NTX / NT / GMX / MT machines.

If anything Gildemeister had a head start compared to Mazak, as they had those big old Max Mueller machines with B and Y 30+ years ago.
 
That CLX 450 TC is really just a new smaller addition to the CTX TC line, which has been around for more than a decade. Not sure why it's called CLX, probably just to differentiate it from the "premium" line. They used to have a CTX 450 TC which was really a Mori machine, much smaller work envelope, redesigned and replaced by the NTX 1000 2nd generation.

Not really sure that this is intended to take a bite out of Mazak's anything, they have been direct competitors in this space for a very long time and there are probably not too many more Integrexes in the wild than CTX TC / NTX / NT / GMX / MT machines.

If anything Gildemeister had a head start compared to Mazak, as they had those big old Max Mueller machines with B and Y 30+ years ago.

Nice ^^^,

I know where you are that MAZAK basically (for you) Sucks b*lls - perhaps in part from general indifference from the giant orange whale. - no matter what size of company you are in the U.K. [I'm sure what you say is not just your view through the prism but has broader scope and collective history of issues that are real that other outfits have experienced as well.].

AND it's interesting that you in Scotland can actually fly to Gildemeister Historic HQ in Westphalia - not Pfronten - to iron things out in an honorable way (for sure) if any serious problems were to crop up. The USA is almost a continent in size, and in some respects Colorado and New Mexico can seem like the ragged ends of various machine tool empires that ebb and flow (being at the furthest reaches of). I.e. very far in land and not coastal to SE Asia or Europe and not in Chicago (obvi.) . [However - not difficult for me to fly to LA by similar comparison (although the machines are obviously not built there). Never the less - MAZAK training center/ technology center is very capable and well staffed and equipped. - Scotland to Bielefeld - similar to Denver (DIA) to LAX. ].

I think the tipping point (maybe for DM- Mori/Gildemeister ) As per Harry Junger and son's posited question re: High wage countries and problems of efficient production (as per the video above) post # 113 ) ~ "Why don't more people use turn-mill solutions ? ANS:[Paraphrase] - "cost barrier to entry and technical complexity and investment of time to learn effectively " then they (Gildemeister (Team "Harry" Managing Director of ..." ) go about "Fixing" that market problem by offering a more affordable* [5/B axis mill turn ] machine by splitting production and assembly between Bielefeld (Germany) and Famot (Poland). Normally the MAZAK integrexes are somewhat less expensive than the more traditional 5/B axis mori seiki "mill-turns"**. The integrexes still have a lot of iron there - different approach to some of the CTX design philosophy - not saying it's deficient in any way ( - just different beasty / somewhat different design intent ) - so maybe that's the "Not taking a bite out of MAZAK integrex-es" .


____________________________________________________________________________________


* Seems DMG Mori have taken a "Leaf" out of HAAS' book and have new and more large-scale automated production capabilities (in development) being - whole-sale - engineered in Famot Poland. ~ I'd expect some more interesting and competitive things to come out from there but not sure the that DMG-Mori USA side of the business would block those products from being distributed in the USA ? Some of the newer spindles coming out FAMOT (Poland) [DMG] look very interesting/ clever / "Better" .

** Gildemeister say "turn-mills".
 
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GF puts 620 on only a limited number of 3 axis machines.:scratchchin:

Yup,

that is 3+2 control or used for 3 axis contouring.

Not sim 5 axis.

not sure how 4+ one-able the 620* HH control is ?

Maybe a typo rather than a "Cut and paste" from Op (maybe).

Normally the Celos and HH combo is HH 640 based.

But as always worth taking the time to go through things with a fine toothed comb and take (one's) time [don't make any assumptions.],

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* But OTOH can handle 8 control loops and two spindles ?

Maybe there's something new ?

https://www.heidenhain.com/fileadmin/pdf/en/01_Products/Prospekte/PR_TNC620_HSCI_OEM_ID895922_en.pdf

^^^ Heidenhain prospective documentation for machine tool builders on the 620.

TNC 620 contouring control | HEIDENHAIN control

^^^ more general stuff on the 620 in very broad strokes.


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DMG Mori Australia - "special promotions" 2021,

Special Sales Promotion 2021

________________________________________

SPECIAL OFFER - DMU 75 monoBLOCK

HIGHLIGHTS

CELOS with Heidenhain TNC 640
Spindle taper HSK-A 63
Production package 40 bar/23 l/min, 600 l tank
Coolant ring jet
Spray pistol for chip rinsing
Cooling air blast
Infrared measuring probe Heidenhain SK 40
Tool measuring in machining area Blum Laser
3D quickSET
Signal lamp 4-colour
Tropical package (ambient temp. max. 50 °C)
Electronic handwheel
ATC (Application Tuning Cycle)
Documentation 1 English
Electric circuit diagram English
3D Data Model

______________________________________

^^^ cut and paste from website.

The CMX 70 U has the Heidenhain 620 control
 








 
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