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Optical Comparator 14" v/s 30"

  • Thread starter Ox
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Ox

Diamond
Joined
Aug 27, 2002
Location
Northwest Ohio
I have not used a shadow graph much at all, but that's gitt'n to be an issue.
I go use a chums for PPAP if need be, but the last time - a chum's machine didn't want to light up.
He doesn't use it either...

I have another chum that I can sponge off of as needed tho...

But I may need to be looking into fetchin' one _ one day _ soon?

The one that I have used - at least recently is a budget commodity sized unit.
Prolly 14"?
I have never used a 30".

When/if I buy, it will likely be a used Cadillac, and not a new Kia.

14" J&L?
or
30" J&L or OGP (or ?)

Some features that I have been asked to verify on PPAP lately are as little as .005 rad blends on a .015 corner.
I just leave it blank or write in that it is soft to the touch, I mean - are you kidding me?

But - is the 30" model going to help me see this better?
Or is it just going to allow a bigger part?


On the other hand, a clean, used, one owner vision unit from Oasis or Keyence might be a better spend, so .... ???


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Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
I'm no expert on these (been decades since I used one), but I think it's the lens choice and magnification chosen that will determine the relative size of the projected image on screen.

So you could get an image on a 14" that was functionally larger than what you'd see on a 30", but if you have the floor space get the bigger machine and the right optics.
 
With J&L, there have been good years, and bad years. If you find a used 14" J&L, someone here might be able to tell you good or bad. I had a J&L 15 yrs ago, and it was a good one. IME, 14 or 30.... 30 just wasted real estate. mostly just using the cross-hairs and a DRO or geo-box, unless you get into making your own overlays
 
I have never really been brand sensitive on comparators, I've used a few different brands that I liked or disliked for one reason or other.

Right now I'm using an old S-T and I hate it. Not enough travel for my needs. I also don't like the angle the screen is at. I prefer a more direct screen than this one that is angled upwards. Even with a hood, the lighting interferes with viewing. We need to build something for more light blockage.

The biggest thing, to me, is the screen. I would love to have radius increments in one quadrant, angle increments in another, etc. (I'm trying to get the boss to budget that in for me.)

We have an older OGP vision system, but I personally find the view too pixellated (sp?) and grainy for anything closer than +/- .003.

These are just some of my personal observations. Hopefully it helps you consider what is important for you and your situation. :)
 
What you can see is a matter of magnification.
At 50x a .005 rad is easy to check +/-.001. At 100x even better as your eyes get old.
Lenes for these things are crazy expensive as are replacement mirrors.
If someone has cleaned the mirror with windex and paper towel it will still work at 20 or 32.5x but be not so good at 50 and useless at 100.

The light bulbs have a very short rated life and can be hard to find for older models.
I like my 14 STs which are the older model with a more substantial table.
DRO a must and many have fancier ones that will do geometry calculations
30s simply allow you to see a bigger picture but are much more robust and often will have power feed on the table and even automatic lens changers. Both of these features very handy and time saving.
With the same lens assortment I'd happily pay twice as much for a 30 over a 14 if you have floor space.

As a hack at lower mag some mount a big ole magnifying glass out front of the screen to see small stuff. Problem here is the lines on the screen get so big that you have to be careful to measure to one side of the line.

Part size, feature size, tolerances?
Moving or shipping an optical comapartor can be a problem as you should have the mirror, glass and light source realigned once it gets a new home.
This not such a big deal if only doing point to point measuring. More a concern with using overlays or checking to an angled feature.
We used to ship them on a spring and shock loaded floating crate. $1000 dollar charge if you did not return the crate within 30 days.
Bob
 
VTM said:
No affiliation. This has been for sale for awhile. I've been looking to. But this one Is a long way from me and bigger than what I need. Not too far from you. If you want a 30" this Is as good or better than any.

[link deleted]


Thanks.
That sounds like a nice machine!
IDK that I am buying right today.
Maybe, but mostly just starting to kick tires.
I don't really have a place for it right now, and more "place" (bigger building) is really higher up my list, with tunnel vision on that right now.

I watched one just like this at auction yesterday for $350.
Now, everything at that sale seemed to be going for 1/2 price - not sure what was up with that?
And there is one in Michigan in unknown condition for $1500.

So I am mostly just seeing what is out there, and trying to understand the differences between the different models.
But thanks for the notice!
Maybe you can pick it up yourself...


-----------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
Thanks.
That sounds like a nice machine!
IDK that I am buying right today.
Maybe, but mostly just starting to kick tires.
I don't really have a place for it right now, and more "place" (bigger building) is really higher up my list, with tunnel vision on that right now
.

I watched one just like this at auction yesterday for $350.
Now, everything at that sale seemed to be going for 1/2 price - not sure what was up with that?
And there is one in Michigan in unknown condition for $1500.


So I am mostly just seeing what is out there, and trying to understand the differences between the different models.
But thanks for the notice!
Maybe you can pick it up yourself...


-----------------------

Think Snow Eh!
O
x

At auction around here (SoCal) typically a camparater might got for $100, can be had cheap on CL as well.

Speaking from experience, unless your very very carefull, the comparater may not survive the journey home. (I'm too embarassed to say how I f'd up a perfectly good comparator)

Also as CarbideBob says the bulbs are expensive. When you find a comparator, check out the price of replacement bulbs. It's illuminating.
 
At auction around here (SoCal) typically a camparater might got for $100, can be had cheap on CL as well.

Speaking from experience, unless your very very carefull, the comparater may not survive the journey home. (I'm too embarassed to say how I f'd up a perfectly good comparator)

Also as CarbideBob says the bulbs are expensive. When you find a comparator, check out the price of replacement bulbs. It's illuminating.

Some of those old comparators are very heavy. I can see how someone could dump one, I almost did. A guy I knew who had a small shop going out of business sale said I could have his old one for free. I went to help the guy move it to the side, to get to a pedestal grinder he sold. The damn thing bent the axle on my dolly that I think was rated at 800# or so. Now it was no longer free and I decided to pass. I just have a 14" which is usually good enough, as I make small parts.
 
What years (or options?) have the Ethernet port to make sure that I get the right answers?


----------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox
 
I'm just grabbing a thread I've posted in before, because I can't remember the password to my old profile and I want to see how much information shows.
 
I like a screen that has lines and radius lines, a micrometer so you can move the part, and a means to drop in a stack of JoBlocks. The bigger screen is a plus. You have to be careful how you clean the screen because the wrong kind on cleaner can soften the screen ink. Some say to put the ink inside, and some say that will offset the image and give a few tenths errors.. I used the name brand screen cleaner(forget the name)or a very mild soap mix solution and a very soft brush. Likely Windex would eat up the ink. The Rule is "Never touch the screen"

Good to consider if bulbs are available for one you look at...and the price.

Most of those that I have used were J&Ls

One J&L that I used would eat up bulbs, I ask an electrical if he could reduce the amps that came to the bulb but likely did not know how to do that. In other G&Ls the bulb would last for years. You avoid fingerprints on the bulb because they run hotter that way.

We made a clear drawing of some forms, and the set that drawing over the screen to check certain fancy parts, using the drawing like a template.

*The vertical screen likely will stay clean if you close the curtain, the angle screen type likely will often get dirty with falling dust and stuff so needing more often cleaning. Yes, you could make a cover lid of sorts.

Sometimes you use a clear plastic scale to measure something off a position so needing the mover the table.

We could never make money running form tools without not having a shadowgraph.

We have a fellow here around Detroit who reconditions them for re-sale that I met at a few auctions, but I don't know where his shop is located.

It takes super care to wash the screen, it has to be rinsed clean of cleaning solution, and being made of glass that is a challenge..best done when nobody is around.
I never used a Nikon but this one looks like a deal, yes good to add a curtain for it...and a shadow hood.
NIKON OPTICAL COMPARATOR - heavy equipment - by owner - sale
 
I have a Tumico one. I suspect they are kind of junky, I don’t know. I bought a second at HGR. The two of them had very different light heads one had much fancier optics. Anyway I combined the best of each into one and put the second stage to use with my microscope.

Also the bulb mine used was an old projector lamp. I found some guys on ebay that make upgrade adapters to allow use of more modern reflector bulbs. I did this to mine. Works well.
 
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From my experience where I work, and three Opt Comp's on the floor: 1- CCP CC-14 "green screen), 2 - old Deltronic (don't remember the model), 3 - old Deltronic (don't remember the model.

Both the Deltronics are white light and black lines on the viewing plate. The CCP is Green light on black lines.

Features / factors that have been points of discussion, either good or bad, in no particular order:

White light or green light? Many of us here are able to see the demarcation of the black scale lines scribed on the plate better with the green screen. Some of us it doesn't matter.

Magnification: The CCP has a built in flippable lever where we can instantly swap between 10x and 20x magnification. This is super useful if we have to check a .500 radius: flip the lever to 10x (20x is the baseline) and check to the .250 radius line (scale maxes at .375 I think it is). Then just flip back to 20x.

The Deltronics require a lens swap out: unscrew the lens sticking out at chest level, put the new on in, etc.

However, we are looking at a new comparator right now, another "green screen" CCP/OGP and there's been focussed discussion on what magnification we want. 30x, 50x?

Surface Illumination. The Deltronics have better/clearer surface illumination, and some measurements require it. The problem is, those use the flexible little "robot arms" with the light at the tips you have to pull out, bend around, and try to position right where you need them to get the image on the screen. The green screen apparently has an "integrated" surface illumination without arms, but it's pretty weak. You can never get a solid image. Bottom Line: if you want surface illumination, pay attention to exactly how it does it, and if you can test it out before buying.

Auto-Edge Detection. Different units do it different ways. I like the CC-14 method because there's no ring/probe pasted to the front of the plate screen. It's a super useful feature, and removes human error/deviation on measurments it can deal with. CAVEAT: Calibrate to a certified pin/block before each use to double check auto-edge is working as intended. Deviations we've seen: 1) If the internal mirrors are dirty, it will affect auto-edge accuracy. Screen illumination has to be at 100%. If illumination is (accidentally, usually always set to 100%)at say 70% or less, auto-edge accuracy is affected.

You are going to have to learn where you can, and cannot trust auto-edge detection on your machine, if it can be calibrated to "zero", or if you manually offset the measurement by an amount identified when you calibrate to a pin/block close to the size in question.

Also on auto edge detection, check it in both the X direction and Y direction. We've had instances of the Y direction being fairly accurate, with the X direction being off by .0001 to .0002 from Y, on the same gage pin.

Templates / glass plate scales. Select the one that's going to serve your needs the most, and/or get multiple. For example: The CC-14 green screen has a single template on it with the standard cross-hairs, 45-deg line, and a 30-degree line, with 1/2 of the plate having radiuses starting at .005,incrementing every .005 out to .375. One of the deltronics has all four quadrants between the cross hairs filled with different increments of radiuses, such as .002, .004 .006, as well as .003, .005, .007, etc.

Bottom line: Consider what you want in the glass plate scale/templates.

Work Holding: Because the CC-14 gets 80% of the use, and is over in our precision Dedtru area, someone here manufactured a super basic, but incredibly useful sliding plate that slots into the dovetail milled into the Comparator's work table. It's about, oh, maybe .300 thick, 3-4" wide, and however deep the table is, with a polished surface. When slid onto the worktable is precisely square to the table. Throw a V-block on the table, nudge it flush to the edge of that plate, dead square. Need to fiddle around with other types of work holding and need the part aligned square/tru, now you have something true to the table, with a polished true surface to set it on, and a true edge to square things up with.

It's likely the OEM for whatever you are looking for has workholding options for their Comparator tables, just outlining what was done here and stood the test of time.

Best of luck, just usability thoughts from where I work.
 
One J&L that I used would eat up bulbs, I ask an electrical if he could reduce the amps that came to the bulb but likely did not know how to do that. In other G&Ls the bulb would last for years. You avoid fingerprints on the bulb because they run hotter that way.
A 5 percent voltage doubles the bulb life and this curve goes way up from there.
Most have a knob, don't drive the bulb hard and you can get 100 times the rated life.
Fingerprints are very bad. Always use a cloth or paper towel when touching the glass shells on these old guys.
Bob
 








 
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