Ornamental Fence. Help with my plan

[jamscal]

I need to make less than 200' of ornamental fence for my backyard.

I have a King Catalog.

Plan is 2 1/2" square tube posts at the ends and 2" posts otherwise.

1 1/2" punched channel 4" centers.

1/2" solid pickets with spear finials and ball tops on the posts.

8 foot panels in general.

_____

Is the above a "standard" good plan?

Is punched channel the way to go? I didn't want to weld the pickets to the side of other cross bars.

Anything else to consider?

Since google has changed there isn't much in the way of -how to- or even a style guide I can find. Too much selling of the crappy superthin aluminum premade panels...

 

[Scottl]

You might want to check your local building codes. Some places have ordinances re spacing between uprights, the idea being to prevent openings that a toddler's head might get caught in. Generally the same specs as used for railings.

 

[52 Ford]

You might want to check your local building codes. Some places have ordinances re spacing between uprights, the idea being to prevent openings that a toddler's head might get caught in. Generally the same specs as used for railings.

For railings, you have to make sure you can't pass a 4" sphere through the gap between balusters. Same with the gap between the bottom rail and the deck.

For a fence, just make sure it's either less than 4" or at least maybe 6" so so. Again, to keep children from getting their head stuck.

Generally, when I frame a deck, I leave a 3-1/2" gap between balusters. I just use a 1X4 board as a spacer.




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[Ries]

How tall? 8' wide, or 8' tall?

If its much over 4' tall I dont think 1/2" square is gonna be stout enough without crossbars of some kind.
This building technique will work. It is pretty much the lowest common denominator, in terms of cheap vs functional.
I have built and installed hundreds and hundreds of feet of fence, but I only did expensive stuff.
Cant compete with Home Depot for stuff like this- they sell a bunch of different styles of premade steel fence, usually at prices less than you will pay for the materials.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Versai-5-ft-H-x-7-5-ft-W-Gloss-Black-Steel-Flat-Top-Design-Fence-Panel-713589041/314255456?g_store=&source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&&mtc=Shopping-BF-F_D22-G-D22-022_013_FENCING-NA-NA-NA-SMART-NA-NA-New_Engen&cm_mmc=Shopping-BF-F_D22-G-D22-022_013_FENCING-NA-NA-NA-SMART-NA-NA-New_Engen-71700000082416246-58700006970241168-92700062772249764&gclid= Cj0KCQjwgMqSBhDCARIsAIIVN1XE5sosme7ItaXY0R0k54aBH2alP7gj-dGbYLMz5WyFTvTioQ7CAMgaAshSEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[52 Ford]

I need to make less than 200' of ornamental fence for my backyard.

I have a King Catalog.

Plan is 2 1/2" square tube posts at the ends and 2" posts otherwise.

1 1/2" punched channel 4" centers.

1/2" solid pickets with spear finials and ball tops on the posts.

8 foot panels in general.

_____

Is the above a "standard" good plan?

Is punched channel the way to go? I didn't want to weld the pickets to the side of other cross bars.

Anything else to consider?

Since google has changed there isn't much in the way of -how to- or even a style guide I can find. Too much selling of the crappy superthin aluminum premade panels...

So you don't plan on welding the pickets/spindles to the rails (the horizontal members)?

Or are you saying you're going to pass the spindles through and weld them on the bottom side of the channel iron?

Regarding the "Google issue" - switch to DuckDuckGo. It works the same way as Google, but they don't track you. I dont mean track in a paranoid way - I mean they don't do Google AdSense and all the other marketing crap.


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[52 Ford]

How tall? 8' wide, or 8' tall?

If its much over 4', I dont think 1/2" square is gonna be stout enough without crossbars of some kind.
This building technique will work. It is pretty much the lowest common denominator, in terms of cheap vs functional.
I have built and installed hundreds and hundreds of feet of fence, but I only did expensive stuff.
Cant compete with Home Depot for stuff like this- they sell a bunch of different styles of premade steel fence, usually at prices less than you will pay for the materials.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Versai-...YLMz5WyFTvTioQ7CAMgaAshSEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

Looking at nye onto $6,000 for 200 feet of that. Plus concrete. Eek.

That doesn't count posts or the brackets either.

My neighbor had their back yard fenced in for about $6K about 5 years ago. Same fence would cost about $11K now.

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[jamscal]

4' tall fence. I was thinking I may need a 3rd horizontal bar.

I already mentioned the 4" centers for any code concerns.

Ries I'm looking for good and not cheap, at the same time I don't need any extreme foo-foo decorations.

But I would never buy those type of home depot fence panels as I think they're thin junk even if they will have a better finish on them initally.

For everything I've seen, those types of panels start to wave, get hit with a soccer ball and buckle, or a limb...there is no real repair.

Most can't tell the difference for a basic fence but I can.

 

[52 Ford]

4' tall fence. I was thinking I may need a 3rd horizontal bar.

I already mentioned the 4" centers for any code concerns.

Ries I'm looking for good and not cheap, at the same time I don't need any extreme foo-foo decorations.

But I would never buy those type of home depot fence panels as I think they're thin junk even if they will have a better finish on them initally.

For everything I've seen, those types of panels start to wave, get hit with a soccer ball and buckle, or a limb...there is no real repair.

Most can't tell the difference for a basic fence but I can.

I agree. If you do opt for a third rail (horizontal member), I suggest having it closer to the top rail than the bottom. Just for aesthetics.

By the way - the word is "froufrou" - not foo foo. Froufrou Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster



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[52 Ford]

Also - I HATE autocorrect. It didn't register "aesthetics" as a real word. Try to correct it to aesthetician and then anesthetic. Dumb...

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[jamscal]

So you don't plan on welding the pickets/spindles to the rails (the horizontal members)?

Or are you saying you're going to pass the spindles through and weld them on the bottom side of the channel iron?

Regarding the "Google issue" - switch to DuckDuckGo. It works the same way as Google, but they don't track you. I dont mean track in a paranoid way - I mean they don't do Google AdSense and all the other marketing crap.


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Channel will be punched so verticals can pass through and be welded.

I didn't think they are generally welded to the side of a flat bar...but that's why I'm asking.

Earlier I was at the park and they have an old cemetary. 5/8 square bar passing through 3/8 by 2 flat bar. the square bar was on the diagonal which was neat and the ends were ground into a pyramid...no finials.

I found some better searches when I typed in 'forum' with my other terms...but yes they're always trying to get you.

 

[Ries]

Its true, the Home Depot style is mostly 1/2" square tubing, not solid square bar, but its still usually possible to get generic fence made with solid square, punched channel, and square tube uprights in most cities for less than you will pay for materials.
And the commercial stuff is powdercoated, which is good, until it isnt, which, these days, is ten years or so, maybe more, depending on where you live.
There are places like these guys- Wrought Iron Fence Panels & Gates | Fast quote & expert help!
I know that I have done some decorative work for people on pre made driveway gates, and they got gates, shipping and all, for a fraction of what custom would cost.

I think for 4' tall, welded to the channel top and bottom, with the both channels facing down, will be plenty strong enough for what you want.
Do check local codes- building codes vary widely from place to place, but in most cases, fence isnt that strict.
I have done a LOT of 4" sphere stuff in my life, come to hate it.

I havent done ornamental fence for a while, but some years ago, when I was still taking jobs like that, I was at a $100 a lineal foot, minimum. Last big fence I did, which was WAY more complicated than this, which I didnt install, was over $500 a foot.
Obviously, welding it yourself, you can do much better than that.
I would say, go for it.
Check on how much to get it powdercoated, but if its too much, go to tractor supply, and buy their tractor paint- decent quality oil based exterior metal paint, not too expensive, and will last quite a while, you can brush, roll, or spray it. Not a lot of colors, but its good stuff. Rustoleum is still available in industrial paint stores, its more money, but better quality.

Nomma is the trade organisation, they have a decent magazine. Obviously, they arent going to tell you for free how to do what they do for money, but you can learn a lot reading back issues online.
nomma.org

 

[52 Ford]

Its true, the Home Depot style is mostly 1/2" square tubing, not solid square bar, but its still usually possible to get generic fence made with solid square, punched channel, and square tube uprights in most cities for less than you will pay for materials.
And the commercial stuff is powdercoated, which is good, until it isnt, which, these days, is ten years or so, maybe more, depending on where you live.
There are places like these guys- Wrought Iron Fence Panels & Gates | Fast quote & expert help!
I know that I have done some decorative work for people on pre made driveway gates, and they got gates, shipping and all, for a fraction of what custom would cost.

I think for 4' tall, welded to the channel top and bottom, with the both channels facing down, will be plenty strong enough for what you want.
Do check local codes- building codes vary widely from place to place, but in most cases, fence isnt that strict.
I have done a LOT of 4" sphere stuff in my life, come to hate it.

I havent done ornamental fence for a while, but some years ago, when I was still taking jobs like that, I was at a $100 a lineal foot, minimum. Last big fence I did, which was WAY more complicated than this, which I didnt install, was over $500 a foot.
Obviously, welding it yourself, you can do much better than that.
I would say, go for it.
Check on how much to get it powdercoated, but if its too much, go to tractor supply, and buy their tractor paint- decent quality oil based exterior metal paint, not too expensive, and will last quite a while, you can brush, roll, or spray it. Not a lot of colors, but its good stuff. Rustoleum is still available in industrial paint stores, its more money, but better quality.

Nomma is the trade organisation, they have a decent magazine. Obviously, they arent going to tell you for free how to do what they do for money, but you can learn a lot reading back issues online.
nomma.org

The tractor and implement paint at Tractor Supply is made by Majic. It's good stuff.

They actually have a pretty decent range of paints on their website.

Homepage - Majic Paints

They actually make fence paint.

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[jamscal]

Ries, thanks for the nomma link, I hadn't heard of them.

I have a fab shop with 6/7 guys...so I believe I buy more steel than any of the local to me ornamental iron places. Meaning I'm going to be the cheapest supplier esp if I make this small quantity.

(I'm sure the local fence companies buy many tons more than I do but ornamental would be a small portion of their business.)

Quick numbers say the steel and spears will be $200/panel. Would have been closer to $100 a year and a half ago.

 

[52 Ford]

Ries, thanks for the nomma link, I hadn't heard of them.

I have a fab shop with 6/7 guys...so I believe I buy more steel than any of the local to me ornamental iron places. Meaning I'm going to be the cheapest supplier esp if I make this small quantity.

(I'm sure the local fence companies buy many tons more than I do but ornamental would be a small portion of their business.)

Quick numbers say the steel and spears will be $200/panel. Would have been closer to $100 a year and a half ago.

Those numbers sound about right.

You didn't mention you owned a fab shop LOL I figured you were doing this at your house or something. That DO make a difference!



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[Bondo]

Go to napa and get a 2 part paint. I have railings that are over 15 years old that still look new. It's pretty cheap compared to other paints. Most 2 parts are way better then single parts.

For 4' tall fencing, you can make the bottom bar heavier so you dont need a 3rd rail.

Consult your local codes. If you make it 50" tall and code says 48", and your neighbor complains. They can fine you until you bring it into code. But if you have good neighbors, no one really cares. There is also 3 codes town deal with. Local, state, federal. You have to check all 3 if your getting deep into codes. They can be different years as towns can choose what and when they adopt.

I use to belong to NOMMA 10 years ago. I stopped doing railings and such. It's a great organization. Lots of members, lots of help, especially on their email forum.

 

[memphisjed]

Pre punch channel is easy, cheap, and relatively straight (even in a machine with hold downs the stuff bows really bad).
King or lawer will have channel punches on the diamond, both will be able to get you flat bar punched too. Flat takes cleaning the underside weld and cost a lot more. Simple forged pointed spears- again king or lawler likely have it.

Nothing wrong with king, good people.. lawler is who I know and deal with. Their second in command is very active in nomma- she can find almost anything or knows who can make it.

 

[Walter A]

I need to make less than 200' of ornamental fence for my backyard.

I have a King Catalog.

Plan is 2 1/2" square tube posts at the ends and 2" posts otherwise.

1 1/2" punched channel 4" centers.

1/2" solid pickets with spear finials and ball tops on the posts.

8 foot panels in general.

_____

Is the above a "standard" good plan?

Is punched channel the way to go? I didn't want to weld the pickets to the side of other cross bars.

Anything else to consider?

Since google has changed there isn't much in the way of -how to- or even a style guide I can find. Too much selling of the crappy superthin aluminum premade panels...

That sounds like a decent plan. I've made quite a bit of ornamental railing.
By using channel for top and bottom rails the railing will look straight in both dimensions.
Make all full welds on top to keep water out. Use a jig setup on a flat table to make them uniform. After welding an old file will knock any splatter off better than a grinder.
I've cleaned and lightly blasted rails, primed with Rusty Metal Primer then top coated with the same in Matt black and they have lasted for years outside. Gloss black does not look as good as a Matt Black.
You don't need a third rail. 4" centers will meet code.
Walter A

 

[jamscal]

Got finished. Posting pic from phone will write out some details/lessons learned later.

 

[jamscal]

Turns out one of my guys had spent a few years in an ornamental iron shop, so he was happy to see the supplies show up and of course knew most? of the tricks.

I'm pretty happy with how it came out. We were doing another job with some expensive epoxy primer so I bought another gallon and sprayed half the fence panels with that...then used rustoleum as a top coat. That seemed to take too long so the second batch I had powdercoated at $100/panel. It looks great. They blasted first and looks like they have a really heavy coat on there...maybe they hot flocked it.

I guess the basics are to make the end (starting) panels with 2 posts, and the rest of the panels on the run gets one post. Set the end panel in concrete and then you build from there....field welding each subsequent panel to the last..

He said it was common to concrete the ends and just throw a dry bag of quickcrete in the middle holes...that seems hack to me so I concreted them all. (Had to anyway as I installed this a bit at a time on weekends.)

We welded under the channel, per my guy. I do worry about rust though.

I was going to weld a bunch of arrows together and then put them in the channel. My guy said that was a no-no. The finials need to be lined up as well or you might get a wavy look. We made the panels first and then had a bar going across all the 'fletching' to weld the finials. I definately see this was the right call.

Other details he had: Of course there are 1000 variations:

The balls start at the top of the finials.

A gate need to have a curve in the top so you can 'find' it in the yard. Mine is on the sidewalk so no need to find it but I made a top channel arch out of 3/16 and I think it looks nice. I did the same with the driveway gate (not shown.)

Unfortunately I made my driveway gate halves too long and I have to cut an inch out of each one.

Except for the angled panels shown, which are about 10 degrees, all my panels were square. But my yard at the back rises about 3-4 inches towards the corner not shown, so I had to dig out a little more than expected to make it work. I feel like all these little details are where the pros shine...I wouldn't have wanted to angle that end up nor would I want a step up for an almost unnoticable grade change. I guess I made the right choice.

-James

 

[DDoug]

Got finished. Posting pic from phone will write out some details/lessons learned later.
View attachment 380995

Looks very nice, but is the gate latch on the sidewalk wide ?