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OT: He who knows only his own side

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Joe Gwinn

Stainless
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Location
Boston, MA area
We have had some real flame wars recently, but this is a very old issue, and here is some historical background. Flame wars are hardly new - just watch the politics anywhere.

A lot of recent discussions are dominated by people talking loudly past one another, and never getting to the core issues, most often the deciding issues. This often appears in the form of asserting low reading comprehension.

And the inability to craft an argument capable of persuading opponents (versus the choir) is a root cause. This is not a new issue, as the following quotes demonstrate.

"He who knows only his own side of the case, knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side; if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion." -- John Stuart Mill, Ch. II: Of the Liberty of Thought and Discussion.

John Stuart Mill - Wikiquote

War story: When I was at the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) in the early 1970s, one lawyer there commented to me that another lawyer that we both knew could not understand an argument that she did not believe in, which was professionally crippling.


And then there is the parallel matter of motivation:

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." --
Daniel Webster

Quote Details: Daniel Webster: Good intentions will always... - The Quotations Page


Roberts Rules of Order were invented to regulate such debates.
 

PackardV8

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Location
Spokane, WA
Random thoughts on your random thoughts:

First problem with flame wars on the internet is lack of context. In person, one may size up the person as well as his words. On the net, no context; is he a true believer, or is he intoxicated, under the influence of illegal or prescription drugs or just bat-shite crazy or just a semi-professional troll who has nothing better than to foment discord?

“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain

"All religions are true, but none are literal."

"None but those of strong passion are capable of rising to greatness."

"None is a fool always; everyone sometime."

jack vines
 

Rickyb

Cast Iron
Joined
Jan 21, 2011
Location
Troy mi
Forums are a place where people offer their opinions, whether they be right or wrong. It is the job of the OP to sift through the opinions an form one of their own.

Offer an opinion and let it got is way it should happen. At that point you are done. No need for defense or offense of your position, just let it go. Any more than that and you need to get a life, this is not that important.
 

kustomizer

Titanium
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Location
North Fork Idaho
Forums are a place where people offer their opinions, whether they be right or wrong. It is the job of the OP to sift through the opinions an form one of their own.

Offer an opinion and let it got is way it should happen. At that point you are done. No need for defense or offense of your position, just let it go. Any more than that and you need to get a life, this is not that important.

You evidently don't know the joy that can only come from name calling, mud slinging and remembering that when you burry the hatchet to leave the handle sticking out for easy access later.
 

plastikdreams

Diamond
Joined
May 31, 2011
Location
upstate nj
Arguing on the internets is just retarded...it brings your trustworthiness and knowledge into question and also creates enemies and drives away people that could help you in the future.

On forums all you have is your name and your words. Your words can make or break your name.
 

mhajicek

Titanium
Joined
May 11, 2017
Location
Minneapolis, MN, USA
duty_calls.png
 

52 Ford

Stainless
Joined
May 20, 2021
We have had some real flame wars recently, but this is a very old issue, and here is some historical background. Flame wars are hardly new - just watch the politics anywhere.

A lot of recent discussions are dominated by people talking loudly past one another, and never getting to the core issues, most often the deciding issues. This often appears in the form of asserting low reading comprehension.

And the inability to craft an argument capable of persuading opponents (versus the choir) is a root cause. This is not a new issue, as the following quotes demonstrate.

"He who knows only his own side of the case, knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them. But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side; if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion." -- John Stuart Mill, Ch. II: Of the Liberty of Thought and Discussion.

John Stuart Mill - Wikiquote

War story: When I was at the FCC (Federal Communications Commission) in the early 1970s, one lawyer there commented to me that another lawyer that we both knew could not understand an argument that she did not believe in, which was professionally crippling.


And then there is the parallel matter of motivation:

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." --
Daniel Webster

Quote Details: Daniel Webster: Good intentions will always... - The Quotations Page


Roberts Rules of Order were invented to regulate such debates.
That was a very well written, articulate post. TL;DR :D

Sent from somewhere inside your house using Tapatalk
 

Scottl

Diamond
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Location
Eastern Massachusetts, USA
The original Roberts Rules of Order were very clear, concise, and helped guide debate and decision making in deliberative bodies. However, the modern versions are so bloated with legalese, loopholes, and other BS that they actually hinder true democratic discussion.

Does anyone reaaaalllyyy win an internet argument?

Argument no, but true debate can offer useful insight into how others think and why they think that way. Ridicule and insults are anti-debating tactics used by those who don't want real debate.
 
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