OT - Help me understand Hi-Fi speakers

[CarbideBob]

Lamp cord is good. Watch the ribbed side for polarity when connecting. This does matter. You do not want one woofer going the opposite direction of the other.
For the shop I just went to Home Depot and bought 50 and 100 foot extension cords and cut the ends off as it was even lower cost for the long runs and no need to "hide" the wiring.
Never a believer in all this gold stuff or super heavy gauge in speaker wire as it seems to make no sense.
There is an argument to be made for gold plated RCA interconnect cables between stuff in a stack over very long use and life span and where it has to live.
Much good talk here from member EPAIII even if it a bit or a lot confusing. JST also one here with lots of chips in his shoes in sound systems.
Bob

 

[CarbideBob]

Works well. Lasts a long time.
My only "concession", "back in the day" was to buy a larger gauge, more long-lived jacket, and the "all-over tinned" flavour of zip cord!

Have a big stereo system rack at home not turned on for well over a decade plus with all this new stuff we have now.
Oh my, Where did I accept any less. This with BIC venturi six speakers. These good but not top end by any means.
Sound fill is one thing. Liking or loving it is another personal matter.

 

[JST]

This is a huge example of "overthinking".

You have 170watts or so of output, which the amplifier can deliver. Get some speakers which you like the sound of, and which can take your 170 watts.

Check the speaker impedance, and be sure the amp can deliver full power into the speaker impedance.

Get some 16 or 18 ga zip cord for connecting the speakers, enough to reach from amp to speakers.. Try not to make that distance more than 25 feet or so. The longer you make it, the bigger the wire should be. System design DONE.

I did not mention speaker impedance before, but it is an important factor. And it is not just the lower, the louder.

What is important is that the impedance be properly MATCHED. The cable from the amplifier to the speaker(s) is what is known in electrical circles as a TRANSMISSION LINE. It is no coincidence that the amplifiers are rated in their power output. This has been so from the days before stereo, not to mention four, four, six, eight channel audio and their fractional channel bass. And there is a very basic principal that says that ANY electrical/electronic transmission line will transmit a maximum amount of power when the SOURCE and DESTINATION impedances are the same. That simply means that an amplifier with an eight Ohm output will transmit the most energy to an eight Ohm load (speaker). And, by the way, that maximum amount of energy is 50% of the energy being consumed by the amplifier's output stage. The other 50% becomes heat in that output stage and is the reason for the heat sinks usually found there. ........................

There is no speaker output in the world that is a transmission line, nor is it "matched". That's "techie-bunkum", pure and simple.


It's not a transmission line for the same reason that 1" of RG-58 is not a "transmission line"... Because the wavelengths used are much much longer than the line, and the characteristics of a transmission line do not develop.

As for the "matching"........which is not done.......

Have you ever heard of the term "damping factor" (DF) as applied to speakers?

That term is a measure of how much LOWER the amplifier output impedance is than the speaker impedance.

It is usual to have a DF of at least 20, meaning the amplifier output is 20x lower impedance than the speaker. A DF of 100 is not unknown.

By the way, while "matching" is sort-of done for open-back guitar speakers and amps, you would really hate how it sounds if the speakers were actually matched by the amplifier. Speakers are optimized for a low source impedance.

So much for matching...... and transmission line action.

 

[CarbideBob]

JST ,,, why to this poke.
Maybe your are the smartes guy in the room.

 

[MCMLXIX]

Lovely!

Thought you might like to update your play list.
Nothing better than a woman who can actually sing, without jumping around with their junk hanging out.

What can I say?

All of them currently active and interpreting the better of the past, while writing, arranging, producing and performing new material.

You have taste THAT discerning?

More eclectic and appreciative of the few who can stand up to a mic and emote an exceptional performance without a flashy distracting show.

WTF are you still doing ... hostage.. in the Kaliphoneyah, SSR?

Just an optimist hoping for sanity, common sense and self determination to come back into fashion. There is still a chance our "Leaders" will get out of the way and allow it to happen.



As to "surrender monkey"? France had foolish leaders with 3-day delay HQ to field. That did not stop a valiant front line from bringing a serious measure of pee on "Schneller Heinz' Guderian's head - nor rear-guarding the extraction at Dunkirk the hard way.

I like the French and the Italians.
I only poke fun at those I like.
I thought I took a subtle jab at most all the sides with my selection.
The French under ground did a pretty good job of tossing wrenches into the German machine and never forget the Eiffel Tower still stands because the French special forces thwarted the precursor of 911 air liner attack against it.

 

[GregSY]

OK...here's my first speaker-specific question.


Looking at Cerwin Vegas....they now sell two lines, the SL and the (presumably) better XSL.

Why do the SL series have an 8 ohm rating and the XSL have a 6 ohm rating? Isn't 6 ohm kinda oddball?

Why do the SL series have 29hz low end and the XSL is higher at 43hz?

 

[tnmgcarbide]

don't confuse "hi-fi" and "sound" . they aren't the same , and shouldn't be confused.
in a shop environment, you probably want "Sound", which implies volume, clarity , dispersion ....PA type
stuff . it doesn't have to sound balanced and accurate as much as it needs to be listenable and un-distorted from most positions in the room ..

"hi-fi" could be a pair of 300B monoblocks pushing 5 WPC into a pair of Focal 6.5" fullrangers in TL

enclosures . solo cello, Django trio, mozart chamber music , beatles .. stunning...you can almost see the music.

great for the home listening room .... probably won't make it over that cnc lathe and 4" carbide shell mill. since you are entering the world of public address- go the music- store route .

you will get much more bang per buck with self powered pa speakers, and run the thing mono or stereo.
you probably won't notice in the din of tools.

good luck

 

[EPAIII]

I bought a pair of non-powered, bookshelf speakers at Best Buy a few years ago; far fewer than 25. They had a set up in the speaker isle where you could switch to about 15 or 20 different speakers to see how they sounded. Perhaps not the best area for such a test, but then, my ears are not 20 years old any more. I bought the least expensive pair that sounded to MY ears as good as the most expensive pair they had. Those speakers are here, in my office and I am happy with them.

For the shop I may have opted for a larger pair, but with my ears, that may have been a waste.

Of course, YMMV. Or perhaps I should say, YEMV (Your Ears May Vary).

Don't expect this at WalMart.

Have not seen a "Stereo Store" that you can walk into for at least 25 years now.

 

[EPAIII]

Oh, I am glad I had finished my coffee. I almost laughed myself into a coughing fit over directional arrows. Had not even heard that one before.

Next they will claim the electrons have an extra percentage of charge or they use teflon insulation to lubricate the electrons on their travel through the cable.

[lots of good info trimmed]

When I was more into this subject, I had fun asking the audio store salesman if speaker cable made a difference. They invariably said it did. I'd then ask, "Would it be better to spend $100 on speaker cable or $100 on better speakers?" The answer was always spend it on better speakers.

I was highly amused at the "unobtanium" cables that had directional arrows printed on them so you wouldn't hook them up backwards.

 

[EPAIII]

It may be a short transmission line. You will never get standing waves at audio frequencies. But it IS a transmission line and the basic power transmission math is still at work. The impedances should be matched as in any transmission line, if you want the best power transfer and if you want to avoid response problems.

Gold plated wires are "techie-bunkum". Matching impedances is NOT. It matters, even at audio frequencies.

And for longer distances, as others have suggested, just use a heavier gauge cord.

This is a huge example of "overthinking".

You have 170watts or so of output, which the amplifier can deliver. Get some speakers which you like the sound of, and which can take your 170 watts.

Check the speaker impedance, and be sure the amp can deliver full power into the speaker impedance.

Get some 16 or 18 ga zip cord for connecting the speakers, enough to reach from amp to speakers.. Try not to make that distance more than 25 feet or so. The longer you make it, the bigger the wire should be. System design DONE.



There is no speaker output in the world that is a transmission line, nor is it "matched". That's "techie-bunkum", pure and simple.


It's not a transmission line for the same reason that 1" of RG-58 is not a "transmission line"... Because the wavelengths used are much much longer than the line, and the characteristics of a transmission line do not develop.

As for the "matching"........which is not done.......

Have you ever heard of the term "damping factor" (DF) as applied to speakers?

That term is a measure of how much LOWER the amplifier output impedance is than the speaker impedance.

It is usual to have a DF of at least 20, meaning the amplifier output is 20x lower impedance than the speaker. A DF of 100 is not unknown.

By the way, while "matching" is sort-of done for open-back guitar speakers and amps, you would really hate how it sounds if the speakers were actually matched by the amplifier. Speakers are optimized for a low source impedance.

So much for matching...... and transmission line action.

 

[gustafson]

OK...here's my first speaker-specific question.


Looking at Cerwin Vegas....they now sell two lines, the SL and the (presumably) better XSL.

Why do the SL series have an 8 ohm rating and the XSL have a 6 ohm rating? Isn't 6 ohm kinda oddball?

Why do the SL series have 29hz low end and the XSL is higher at 43hz?View attachment 339658View attachment 339659

Notice the more expensive speaker actually has dB ratings on the frequency response, where the other does not. That is the difference.

In your case you have multiple actual amplifiers, rather than a stereo amp the A+B switch, so the impedance is not that big a deal other than matching one set to the other.

 

[gustafson]

Funny I looked it up and my memory is correct, my ADS speakers, some 30 years old are 3dB down at 28 hz, I would have thought that they would make more capable speakers now. OF course these were like 1200 bucks 30 years ago, so there is that.

I think what you will find is that smaller speakers, and probably all ported speakers, jack up the mid bass, where, frankly most of the music is, and then the low bass drops like a stone. More expensive speakers will be much flatter, but may not 'sound' bassier to you.

This is where the shop vs house comes in. You may be less happy with truly flat[IOW expensive] speakers, than with speakers that are trying to fool you with jacked up mid bass.

 

[kustomizer]

Cerwin-Vega XLS-12

I have 6 of these equally spaces around the shop, 8 feet off the floor to the bottom of them, 4 feet out from the wall, without having it real loud I can hear it well most of the time in most places in the shop with 2-3 VMC's running.

 

[GregSY]

6 XLS-12 speakers would be 'excessive'...in a good way.

If you found those for $125 each....that's a steal.

 

[Tony Quiring]

Remember the special speaker wire with heavy strands in center for bass and fine strands on outside for higher frequencies, they stated skin effect in play. ..for audio?

Sure, Andrew LDF4 is aluminum core with copper plate on center conductor, cheaper this way but that is radio frequencies.

Doubt it matters at frequencies the ear hears but marketing being what it is...

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

 

[dcsipo]

I have for my shop this fairly massive receiver...a Denon AVR 5800 which 62lbs. worth of relatively old school radio. I didn't buy it new but they were around $3800 20 years ago.



Denon AVR-5800 A/V receiver | Sound & Vision

I want to buy some speakers that will work well with it.

In looking at speakers...it seems nowadays a great many are 'powered'. That is, they appear to have their own 120v amp and also work off Bluetooth or some other wireless technology...so you don't have to run 'hard' wires to them.


That's great...but I like wires and don't mind running them. I also think the receiver should have enough power to drive speakers without the need for an amp in the speaker box. I also wonder if the amps located in the speaker box will compromise sound quality or have other negative effects.

So....do I ignore all of the powered speakers, or is there no harm in using them if I find a set I otherwise like?View attachment 339479

Do not buy any speakers that you did not listen to yourself in an environment that kinda resembles what you are going to put them into....All that said you are screwed no one will demo speakers in a space that large and reverberant. Go to best buy or some other local AV dealer. If you go to best buy go to one that has what they call a Magnolia room. Listen to all the speakers using music that you like and know well.

Set yourself a budget. You have a 5.1 amp designed for surround sound. so buy 5.1 speakers. I e a center two front two rear and a sub. If you listen to metal and stadium rock you will be in the Klipsch JBL Cervin camp, if you are into classical you may like things like Kef, B&W Vandersteen, Wilson....You want new, take a heavy check book

 

[Screwmachine]

Remember the special speaker wire with heavy strands in center for bass and fine strands on outside for higher frequencies, they stated skin effect in play. ..for audio?

Sure, Andrew LDF4 is aluminum core with copper plate on center conductor, cheaper this way but that is radio frequencies.

Doubt it matters at frequencies the ear hears but marketing being what it is...

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

Some years back I was at a get together at a high end audio dealer's house. He was super excited about the new power cable he had on his amp, cost some hundreds of bucks, he could "totally hear the difference"; I asked about the Romex that went from the 5 buck outlet to the panel... that got a really blank look, haha.

 

[kustomizer]

6 XLS-12 speakers would be 'excessive'...in a good way.

If you found those for $125 each....that's a steal.

They were a good deal for the shop, we wouldn't put them in the house as they were not cared for all that well in a previous life so they are a bit banged up, however to me they sound great in a machine shop

 

[GregSY]

Local guy has some CV E715's...I could buy these fairly cheap.

26HZ-20kHZ
400 watts peak
sensitivity 102dB

I read some reviews that say their great, and also a few from higher-end guys who say they're a bit harsh on the ears

 

[tnmgcarbide]

i like music in the warehouse...when i'm not machining. my place is 6000 sq ft , including
a 1400' office/kitchen and a 1700' freezer. i prefer not to play music while making chips
or just at very low volume . sound is critical to feed/speed situations . proofing a program...
my anus is in pucker-mode...i don't need surprises . sure , once everything's good -let the cnc do the job, crank
some ac/dc from say.. JBL L-112? , maybe just minimus-7 will do.

it's going to sound like a gymnasium . you don't need klipsch horns anymore . it used
to be that watts were expensive when Jensen Imperial was the king daddy of horn-loaded
behemoths . people used to redesign the walls and floorplan of their houses to accommodate
the size. a pair of EL-34s pushing 50w could make the roof quake, your neighbors hate you.

now- class D amps with switch-mode power supplies offer huge output and cost next to nothing.
200wpc ...way under $200 easy.

you can get any-old soggy ,88 db speaker to wake-up with that much juice .