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OT: home backup power generators

EmGo

Diamond
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Location
Over the River and Through the Woods
I've been looking for something to cut that down a bit so you don't immediately go deaf although it's never going to be quiet.
In the tug I put a box around the engine lined two-deep with horse stall mats, made a huge difference and they are very cheap. That "special soundproofing" stuff is mostly a shuck I think.

I can't say it was quiet but not unpleasant. A tug should not be silent, after all. And the detroit noise, at lower decibels, is very industrial.

A generator that makes three-phase might be useful in the future, monsewer power ?
 

EPAIII

Diamond
Joined
Nov 23, 2003
Location
Beaumont, TX, USA
Good info here. I purchased a Generac 22K about two years ago. The installation with natural gas and wiring and transfer switch was about as much as the generator. The $6,000 model will probably cost around $10,000 to $12,000 installed by a generator company. How much you can save if you DIY, I can't say. Things like copper wire, gas line installation, and a changeover switch cost money. Even a pad to support it can be several hundred dollars.

Also good info on running it regularly. Mine runs for about five minutes every Sunday. I have used generators both in the military (Vietnam) and at TV stations. One thing that I learned is if you don't run them on a regular schedule, all you have is a pile of parts that does nothing. More than once I had to resurrect a generator that had been neglected.

This is a good argument against a portable where those regular test runs are all on you. My Generac has a controller that takes care of that chore every week. I am sure the other brands of installed generators do likewise. But I doubt that the portable ones do. The installers and Generac did not say that it must run under load. But here in SE Texas, near the Gulf Coast, we have outages that are frequent enough to make that less of a worry.

What I have not done yet is to set up for dual fuel (natural gas and propane) and stock up on the service supplies (oil, filter, etc.) it will need if we have a hurricane and need it for a week or two. This discussion is a timely reminder.



I'm not sure which models use the American made engine. The engines made in the USA are the G-Force, and the OHVI. According to the company literature they are designed and manufactured in Wisconsin.

Seeing this will be a temporary setup I'm not sure a permanent standby model would be the best choice. The least expensive ones are in the $2,000.00 range. The Generac model we're considering is around $6,000.00 depending on where it's purchased. The Kohler model is closer to double that amount. You'll also need to plumb in the fuel source, and wire in some kind of transfer switch. The installation costs could easily be as much as the generator itself. A " portable" 10kw model is generally in the $1,500.00 range and doesn't require a plumbed in fuel source.

Keep in mind the system will also need to be exercised regularly. The recommended exercise time for our Onan 5,500-watt model is 2 hrs. per month under at least half load. Running it at regular intervals under some load keeps the moisture out of the windings and circulates the engine oil to keep things lubricated. Then there's the annual maintenance like oil and filter changes as well as air and fuel filters.
 

gbent

Diamond
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Location
Kansas
About the only way to quiet a Detroit is to bury it, or leave it off. You can pipe the exhaust into the next township and its still a mechanically noisy engine.
 

daryl bane

Titanium
Joined
Mar 12, 2002
Location
East Texas
A timely post. As I am writing this, they are installing my new Generac. Like EPAIII , I too live in East Texas, alittle farther north, but being here just a short time have experienced multiple power outages. It hasn't happen yet, but the thought of sipping a glass of wine on a hot or stormy night and have the power go down, maybe for days, was just not something I want to deal with.
 

MrWhoopee

Hot Rolled
Joined
Nov 8, 2017
Since you are planning to go solar in the not too distant future, and the power inlet is alread installed for a portable generator, I would say that a portable is the way to go. Installation of an automatic standby generator is a significant expense on top of the purchase price. I live in a situation similar to yours and have two portables. The first is a Honda Eu3000is, which is a beautiful, quiet, economical unit. I use it 90% of the time. The second is a Rigid 10kw with a Subaru motor. It gets fired up when I need 240v to pump up the well or run the water heater for showers. You will likely need 240v to run your well. If your budget allows, I would recommend the Honda Eu7000is or EB10000 depending on need. The only downside to the Hondas is fuel storage. I keep about 30 gallons of gas in 5 gal cans which are dated and rotated to keep fresh.
If you weren't planning to go solar soon, I would likely recommend a Kohler automatic with NG or propane.

My wife does complain that she misses the candles and kerosene lamps, but it's only romantic for a few hours. Her attitude changes completely when there's no water to flush.
 

redlee

Titanium
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Location
Beaver County Alb. Canada
I believe the honda eu7000 inverter unit can be adapted to propane. This would be a no-brainer for me if I were doing it.
I agree, I have 2 Hondas and they are the best IMHO.
 

Ron Hofer

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jul 7, 2007
Location
Brookfield, WI
Good info here. I purchased a Generac 22K about two years ago. The installation with natural gas and wiring and transfer switch was about as much as the generator. The $6,000 model will probably cost around $10,000 to $12,000 installed by a generator company. How much you can save if you DIY, I can't say. Things like copper wire, gas line installation, and a changeover switch cost money. Even a pad to support it can be several hundred dollars.

Also good info on running it regularly. Mine runs for about five minutes every Sunday. I have used generators both in the military (Vietnam) and at TV stations. One thing that I learned is if you don't run them on a regular schedule, all you have is a pile of parts that does nothing. More than once I had to resurrect a generator that had been neglected.

This is a good argument against a portable where those regular test runs are all on you. My Generac has a controller that takes care of that chore every week. I am sure the other brands of installed generators do likewise. But I doubt that the portable ones do. The installers and Generac did not say that it must run under load. But here in SE Texas, near the Gulf Coast, we have outages that are frequent enough to make that less of a worry.

What I have not done yet is to set up for dual fuel (natural gas and propane) and stock up on the service supplies (oil, filter, etc.) it will need if we have a hurricane and need it for a week or two. This discussion is a timely reminder.
EPAIII,

I don't doubt that Generac has improved its product (and installation) over the last 25 years. Still, I urge you to double-check the vital circuits that you bought it for.
]
Ron
 

EPAIII

Diamond
Joined
Nov 23, 2003
Location
Beaumont, TX, USA
Here in hurricane country you learn to fill up the bath tub and some water bottles BEFORE a storm strikes. Water for drinking, water for washing, and water for flushing. Of course if it floods nearby, which in my case is likely, you have no problems getting more water for flushing. In some cases it could be right at the end of my driveway.

But in 30+ years here, the house has never flooded or even been close to it (6" vertically). You may laugh, but that's a lot in flat, coastal areas.

My wife never loved the power outages. Most of the places where we have lived were in southern climates where the humidity was high. Without AC, all thoughts of romance went out the window. Before her untimely death, my wife and I decided on a generator that could carry the whole house, including two central ACs and an electric kitchen and laundry. It was expensive, but I have no regreats. I have sat in a nice, cool house twice now while the rest of the neighborhood suffered in the heat and humidity for hours or over a day. I tried not to show bright lights from the street. But I do notice that more and more houses are getting generators.



Since you are planning to go solar in the not too distant future, and the power inlet is alread installed for a portable generator, I would say that a portable is the way to go. Installation of an automatic standby generator is a significant expense on top of the purchase price. I live in a situation similar to yours and have two portables. The first is a Honda Eu3000is, which is a beautiful, quiet, economical unit. I use it 90% of the time. The second is a Rigid 10kw with a Subaru motor. It gets fired up when I need 240v to pump up the well or run the water heater for showers. You will likely need 240v to run your well. If your budget allows, I would recommend the Honda Eu7000is or EB10000 depending on need. The only downside to the Hondas is fuel storage. I keep about 30 gallons of gas in 5 gal cans which are dated and rotated to keep fresh.
If you weren't planning to go solar soon, I would likely recommend a Kohler automatic with NG or propane.

My wife does complain that she misses the candles and kerosene lamps, but it's only romantic for a few hours. Her attitude changes completely when there's no water to flush.
 

EPAIII

Diamond
Joined
Nov 23, 2003
Location
Beaumont, TX, USA
"Still, I urge you to double-check the vital circuits that you bought it for."

Vital circuits? I don't understand. It powers the whole house and all it's circuits. I can have three ACs running (2 house and 1 shop), bake in the electric oven, cook on the electric cooktop run the washer and electric dryer, and work in my shop all at the same time. I doubt that I will ever do all that at once, but it is possible. Whole house means whole house - all the circuits. No power rationing is needed.

Or did you mean the power cable to the change over switch or that switch itself? Or the generator's interior wiring. It has come on automatically several times now and the weekly test runs without issues.



EPAIII,

I don't doubt that Generac has improved its product (and installation) over the last 25 years. Still, I urge you to double-check the vital circuits that you bought it for.
]
Ron
 

Dan from Oakland

Titanium
Joined
Sep 15, 2005
Location
Oakland, CA
Sorry , im late to the party, but just FYI, my experience with Generac service was WAY less than unsatisfactory.
We purchased several 1000W portable Generacs- they both stopped running in less than 6 months of 1-2 day a week use. Calling Generc for parts was a joke- even the local Generac dealer finally told us they could not get parts out of the factory. We wrote several letters to them regarding the issues and it was absolute crickets!!!!

DONT BUY A GENERAC GENERATOR!!! We ended up replacing them with the Honda 1000s and 2000s - they are still running 8 years later.
 

steve-l

Titanium
Joined
Mar 2, 2012
Location
Geilenkirchen, Germany
This thread is very old, but still very much valid. When considering a backup generator, the primary concern should be backup and without fuel security, you really do not have backup. That can be accomplished by either heating oil (diesel) or propane. Natural gas should not even be considered because you do not have control of its supply. Now the argument is between propane and oil. Propane requires a large tank under pressure and oil requires a simple plastic tank. Oil has 50% more energy by volume than propane, so storage takes much less space. Propane won't vaporize in cold temperatures. Although gasoline is a choice, it is expensive and dangerous to store in volume and perhaps even illegal in your community.

You now have to consider noise and the slower the generator runs, the quieter it is. Generators that run on gasoline or gas are usually 2 pole and have to run at 3600 rpm to produce 60 Hz power, but 4 pole gen sets run at half that speed 1800 rpm. Guess what's more quiet? The last and most important point is intended duty cycle. Most gasoline and gas engines are limited duty rated whereas most diesels are continuous rated, not all, but most. In all cases there is a limit to run time vs oil change requirement and it is surprisingly short. However, diesel engines usually have a larger oil pan capacity and are capable of longer run duration before oil changes.

After all these considerations, my solution was to convert a 10' steel shipping container to a generator house installing an overheard "I" beam and trolley, LED lighting, Filtered air inlet air ducting and cooling air exhaust duct for the radiator. I also installed an output switch box with circuit breakers and ground fault interrupters. There are feed waterproof output connecters on the outside of the container as well as a fuel fill connector that leads to my 6000 liter heating oil storage tank.. My chosen generator is a 3 phase 15 KW (20 KVA) diesel with a 200 liter fuel tank in its base. I have also installed a fuel transfer pump and a battery tender. The converted container is independently fed by the house electric power and the output connectors feed two transfer switches, one for me and one for my neighbor if he needs it. These transfer switches are installed at the house power entrance point in both houses. I ran insulated exhaust pipe from the genset to an internal muffler and then outside to a much larger muffler for noise abatement. When running it can barely be heard at 50"

As an added bonus, there is enough room left in the container to house an emergency food supply and a 4 cylinder 300 BAR air compressor for my PCP tanks.
 

steve-l

Titanium
Joined
Mar 2, 2012
Location
Geilenkirchen, Germany
Empo started it Thursday. Today is Saturday. Do you work in corporate finance, by any chance ?


Wow. A B.A.R. and some tanks of pcp. Should make for a very interesting party :D
Sorry, I referenced EMPO's join date as the thread start date. You might note that one BAR = i atmosphere or 14.7 PSI . My Bauer compressor creates pressure greater than 4,000 PSI which I use to charge my Pre-Charged Pneumatic (PCP) air guns. The steel container also provides safety against explosion at those pressures. Your smartass comment indicates that my solution, which only cost me about $8,000, is not for you. It is obviously too professional for your level of knowledge to appreciate.
 

EmGo

Diamond
Joined
Apr 14, 2018
Location
Over the River and Through the Woods
my solution, which only cost me about $8,000, is not for you. It is obviously too professional for your level of knowledge to appreciate.
Please don't make me put up the Bob Newhart sketch about the German sense of humor again, I'm on a limited-data plan :(

To save you a little searching (which you apparently didn't try) a BAR is a "Browning Automatic Rifle", automatic, shoots a 30 ought 6 projectile, invented at the end of WW I and is Rambo's weapon of choice. PCP is an animal tranquilizer famous for giving people really bad paranoid experiences.

The combination is enough to make anyone but a German smile ... or run for cover :)

--
Tiny
 

empower

Titanium
Joined
Sep 8, 2018
Location
Novi, MI
This thread is very old, but still very much valid. When considering a backup generator, the primary concern should be backup and without fuel security, you really do not have backup. That can be accomplished by either heating oil (diesel) or propane. Natural gas should not even be considered because you do not have control of its supply. Now the argument is between propane and oil. Propane requires a large tank under pressure and oil requires a simple plastic tank. Oil has 50% more energy by volume than propane, so storage takes much less space. Propane won't vaporize in cold temperatures. Although gasoline is a choice, it is expensive and dangerous to store in volume and perhaps even illegal in your community.

You now have to consider noise and the slower the generator runs, the quieter it is. Generators that run on gasoline or gas are usually 2 pole and have to run at 3600 rpm to produce 60 Hz power, but 4 pole gen sets run at half that speed 1800 rpm. Guess what's more quiet? The last and most important point is intended duty cycle. Most gasoline and gas engines are limited duty rated whereas most diesels are continuous rated, not all, but most. In all cases there is a limit to run time vs oil change requirement and it is surprisingly short. However, diesel engines usually have a larger oil pan capacity and are capable of longer run duration before oil changes.

After all these considerations, my solution was to convert a 10' steel shipping container to a generator house installing an overheard "I" beam and trolley, LED lighting, Filtered air inlet air ducting and cooling air exhaust duct for the radiator. I also installed an output switch box with circuit breakers and ground fault interrupters. There are feed waterproof output connecters on the outside of the container as well as a fuel fill connector that leads to my 6000 liter heating oil storage tank.. My chosen generator is a 3 phase 15 KW (20 KVA) diesel with a 200 liter fuel tank in its base. I have also installed a fuel transfer pump and a battery tender. The converted container is independently fed by the house electric power and the output connectors feed two transfer switches, one for me and one for my neighbor if he needs it. These transfer switches are installed at the house power entrance point in both houses. I ran insulated exhaust pipe from the genset to an internal muffler and then outside to a much larger muffler for noise abatement. When running it can barely be heard at 50"

As an added bonus, there is enough room left in the container to house an emergency food supply and a 4 cylinder 300 BAR air compressor for my PCP tanks.
i already have a 500gallon propane tank, so its a no brainer.
 








 
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