OT: Hydraulic Pump Flange Question

[RandR10]

So I have an oddball pump that I'm trying to figure out what standard it was made to.

So here's the measurements:
-4 bolt flange with a 3.54" (90 mm) bolt circle.
-1.995" (50.72 mm) pilot
-Tapered input shaft that's right around 1/2"/13 mm at its base and M8-1.25 threads at the tip. Taper is 0.913" long from the seal surface and 0.415" at the small end.

Now I've looked at all of the different ISO and SAE pump flange charts I can find online and I cannot find any standard flange that comes close to this specification. Is this just a one off Japanese design or maybe from an obsolete standard? Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

It's on a Kioti LB2204 tractor, a clone of the L245DT Kubota which was originally designed and built in the mid-'70s in Japan, same pump and all. Reason I'm looking at it is because I'd like to put a higher displacement pump than the 10cc one that's on there and looking at options that would bolt to the current flange mounting surface and drive off of the same gear. This pump was originally intended to just move the 3-point lift in the rear, but now it's running a power steering cylinder with a priority valve, a front end loader and then the 3-point. It's just not enough pump, even for the little loader that's on there. Would love to get the hydraulics moving a little faster on this machine and nobody makes an off the shelf upgrade.

Edit: After reading sticky, looks like I ought to have put OT on the subject heading. This may involve machine work on the gear train of this pump drive, but the question is a technical one not specific to machining. Sorry if I upset anyone.

 

[Richard King]

Practical Machinist Forum is normally for Machinists. I see this Tractor forum and they are talking about your Kioti Brand. You will probably see more info on Tractor Forums.

L2204/LB2202DT Engine Question or Repower Options

Hello all. I'm a new owner of a Kioti LB2204. This is the Dae Dong version of the Kubota L2202DT that the two companies partnered on. It's a great little tractor and pretty much everything works on it, but the problem is that the engine is toast. It's blowing smoke and oil out the breather and...

www.orangetractortalks.com

 

[Richard King]

I see this forum on facebook too. https://www.facebook.com/PickSGT

 

[RandR10]

This isn't a tractor specific question, it's in regards to pump/motor flanges and will involve custom fabrication and machining that tractor guys won't know anything about. I figured since a lot of machinists work exclusively with hydraulics someone here might be able to point me in the right direction as far as what standard they used way back in '75 to spec this pump flange. If I can get that info I can look for a larger displacement pump to adapt to this flange. The things that are tripping me up are the bolt circle and pilot diameter combo. Without that I'm looking at machining a completely new gear housing which wouldn't be worth the effort IMO. Nothing out there that I've found comes close, but maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place.

 

[R. Dan]

Get a pto pump.

You're welcome...

 

[ratbldr427]

Find a SAE pattern that is close, enlongating bh's and turning the pilot or making a ring is simple. The std SAE flange pumps in each size are available in many displacements and compound also. Prices are reasonable on the surplus market.

Go on line and any of the hyd pump mfg's will have a page of all the standard flanges, Parker is a good one, Eaton/Vickers has that also but I think they are now Danfoss. There are also spline shaft adaptors available.

 

[technocrat]

Sounds like it's an Italian pump or clone. I put a pulley on one about 10 years ago. Euromount group 1 is the name I think.

 

[RandR10]

Sounds like it's an Italian pump or clone. I put a pulley on one about 10 years ago. Euromount group 1 is the name I think.

Exactly the kind of info I needed. Thank you.

 

[BT Fabrication]

the kioti tractors are junk cheap knock offs. propritary parts.

problem you will have is having the HP to drive said pump if you go larger. they struggle at best with what they currently have for hp
want faster, buy a larger HP tractor. HP=Speed.

 

[Bill D]

See page 24 or so for dimansions.
Bill D

https://www.bibus.sk/fileadmin/product_data/turolla/documents/turolla_hydraulic_gear_pumps_group1_catalogue_en_l1016399.pdf

 

[RandR10]

the kioti tractors are junk cheap knock offs. propritary parts.

problem you will have is having the HP to drive said pump if you go larger. they struggle at best with what they currently have for hp
want faster, buy a larger HP tractor. HP=Speed.

Tractor has plenty of horsepower to drive a larger pump. Currently my best estimate is that the pump is putting out about 5.5 GPM at 2200 psi so that's only going to require about 7 hp to run that max'd out. At high idle it hits the bypass and the motor barely grunts. Engine makes 25 hp so there's plenty of room to increase flow rate there and have plenty of power to drive it. I want to about 1.5x it to 8 or so GPM, which will still be using less than half the available power.

If this tractor is a cheap knockoff then I guess '80s Kubotas were too. It's literally a rebadged Kubota. I can and have walked into any Kubota dealership and buy L245 parts and drop them right in. The axles and running gear for Kubotas were built by Daedong (Kioti's parent company) in the '80s, and it's got a DH1101 Kubota motor in it. I re-sleeved and put new pistons in this motor with Kubota parts, and the piston castings that came out of it were identical to the replacement ones, as is the engine casting right down to the numbers molded into the side of the block and the stamping on the block near the injection pump. I rebuilt one of the final drives on the front axle with parts I bought at the Kubota dealership for an L245. Everything mechanical on the machine has Kubota part numbers. As far as I know the only things that are different are the hydraulic block where the priority valve sits, the power steering unit, the loader itself and the sheet metal. Kioti didn't start making their own unique tractors and assigning their own part numbers until I believe the LK series tractors, but even then they kept most of the Kubota design, which is probably why they got sued by Kubota. That and their dealers were telling people that the tractor was actually a Kubota, which on these earliest models it pretty much was. I guess the only thing you could say that makes it a "cheap knockoff" is that they may not have been as stringent on QC as the Japanese were with their branded version, but that's sort of a moot point on old iron like this.

 

[RandR10]

The Italian standard pump flanges were a dead end. I looked through all of those and it looks like the flanges are all rectangular on them and they're not even close size wise. Been thinking about it a lot today and it's looking like I have two options without getting crazy with different gear housing and drive gear customization.

1. Take a 2-bolt SAE AA flange and modify it to fit my gear housing. It has the same 2" pilot and the bolt spacing is just only about a 1/4" smaller than the current bolt circle. I think if I slot the mounting holes outboard the 1/8" on either side I have enough meat on the gear housing to drill and tap holes to accept it. I'm not married to the tapered input shaft either, so an off the shelf keyed straight shaft could work. I could just bore and broach the gear for a keyway and either press fit and/or use sleeve retainer to hold the gear at the proper stand off distance from the pump to line the gears up.
2. This engine has a front PTO shaft that's a carryover from the old Kubotas, and it's designed to accommodate a front mount pump like you'd see on an old Ford or Massey. It's about 25mm in diameter and splined. Off the shelf parts are no longer available AFAIK, but I could adapt a lovejoy coupling to that and drive a pump off the front of the motor, then plumb a second pump into the system.
3. Option above mentioned, putting a rear PTO pump on, is not good for me. I need to have access to the PTO for other implements so I can brush hog and rototill with this machine, so that one's DOA.

I'm leaning heavily towards option 1 though because I'd like to keep the plumbing as simple as possible, and I should be able to machine the housing of whatever pump I buy to accept the current o-ring pipe flanges that are currently on there. Also, there's not a ton of room to work with as it is, so it will clutter things up quite a bit if I do option 2, and it'll be quite a bit more expensive. Option 1 I'm buying a pump and spending some time doing some very simple machining of parts to fit. Option 2 I have to get a splined coupling setup built and a mounting bracket made for the pump, along with all the extra plumbing to tie it in, so I'm thinking a lot more time and a little bit more expense.

 

[RandR10]

Question, does anyone know if the input shaft on a typical hydraulic pump would be hardened? I was just assuming they were, but if they're not, I could do some work on the input shaft to come up with a fastening solution for the drive gear.

 

[Garwood]

Use existing pump shaft/housing to make a PTO drive to adapt any standard pump you want.

Don't machi9ne the input shaft of a hydraulic pump. That's retarded.

You guys make this shit way too complicated.

 

[RandR10]

LOL, I haven't been called retarded online in awhile.
So you're saying I should machine the existing drive gear to press fit onto the keyed shaft?
BTW, there isn't enough shoulder on the gear to use a set screw.

 

[BT Fabrication]

Tractor has plenty of horsepower to drive a larger pump. Currently my best estimate is that the pump is putting out about 5.5 GPM at 2200 psi so that's only going to require about 7 hp to run that max'd out. At high idle it hits the bypass and the motor barely grunts. Engine makes 25 hp so there's plenty of room to increase flow rate there and have plenty of power to drive it. I want to about 1.5x it to 8 or so GPM, which will still be using less than half the available power.

If this tractor is a cheap knockoff then I guess '80s Kubotas were too. It's literally a rebadged Kubota. I can and have walked into any Kubota dealership and buy L245 parts and drop them right in. The axles and running gear for Kubotas were built by Daedong (Kioti's parent company) in the '80s, and it's got a DH1101 Kubota motor in it. I re-sleeved and put new pistons in this motor with Kubota parts, and the piston castings that came out of it were identical to the replacement ones, as is the engine casting right down to the numbers molded into the side of the block and the stamping on the block near the injection pump. I rebuilt one of the final drives on the front axle with parts I bought at the Kubota dealership for an L245. Everything mechanical on the machine has Kubota part numbers. As far as I know the only things that are different are the hydraulic block where the priority valve sits, the power steering unit, the loader itself and the sheet metal. Kioti didn't start making their own unique tractors and assigning their own part numbers until I believe the LK series tractors, but even then they kept most of the Kubota design, which is probably why they got sued by Kubota. That and their dealers were telling people that the tractor was actually a Kubota, which on these earliest models it pretty much was. I guess the only thing you could say that makes it a "cheap knockoff" is that they may not have been as stringent on QC as the Japanese were with their branded version, but that's sort of a moot point on old iron like this.

5gpm at 2200 PSI takes a bit more HP then that to drive it. 1gpm @ 1000 PSI takes approx 1 Hp without any lossses. you would be in the 10-12 hp range full out but still need more to move the machine at the same time.

 

[garychipmaker]

Your timing gears may not be able to handle the extra load