OT Need advice regarding home water softeners/tankless water heaters

[Thunderjet]

We're planning to update the water heater in the house and I want to add a softener also.

Is it worth the cost to add a softener?

Is tankless the way to go?

How long will a good system last?

What do we need to avoid?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Rob F.]

So many variables with water in different areas, try to find someone local to you that has a good reputation.
Here we could not do without the softener due to the hard water.
If you do not already have water hammer arrestors get some. At the minimum for the clothes washer and dish washer. They are the best thing for preventing water heater leaks and the new building code requires them. They work.

 

[amaranth]

I have a couple of Rinai tankless heaters; I use one as the heat source for hydronic heating in my shop. They've been running close to 20 years without problems. Well, other than the yellow jackets or mice that make it into the intake vent.

With any tankless you need to make sure you have good quality water going into it (softened, filtered, etc) to keep gunk out of the heat exchanger.

 

[gbent]

How hard is your water? Why is your water hard?

 

[Thunderjet]

I have a couple of Rinai tankless heaters; I use one as the heat source for hydronic heating in my shop. They've been running close to 20 years without problems. Well, other than the yellow jackets or mice that make it into the intake vent.

With any tankless you need to make sure you have good quality water going into it (softened, filtered, etc) to keep gunk out of the heat exchanger.

Exactly the info I wanted right there^^^^^^^^^

Do you think it was worth the added expense?

 

[EmGo]

Do you think it was worth the added expense?

Tankless has been the main hot water method in china for at least thirty years, and all the east coast has hard water, since the source is rivers that flow though minerals for 500 or a thousand miles before we get it.

The early ones running propane were pretty awful. They'd work sort-of okay, if you set the flow and the temperature at one spot and never changed it. Japanese, Chinese, Korean brands all same, pretty flaky.

But they are all a lot better now. I think the electric ones work better, in that they are more controllable on temperature, and volume change doesn't affect the temp as much.

About "added expense", I bet they are cheaper, since you are not heating then storing hot water 24 hours a day, you just heat what you need when you need it. And you never run out, which is nice.

I don't know how long they last but being little things that hang on the wall, have to be easier to replace than a 30 gallon white elephant lurking in the basement. Have you ever had to dump a rusted-out storage-type hot water heater ? What a nightmare.

Thirty years ago I didn't like them but these days, they work good.

I bet US prices are off in lalaland tho, like the mini-split air conditioners. Stuff we pay $200 for, you guys get to pay $1500. It's crazy.

 

[Thunderjet]

About "added expense", I bet they are cheaper, since you are not heating then storing hot water 24 hours a day, you just heat what you need when you need it. And you never run out, which is nice.

Now that you mention that thought, I'm starting to think this is the way to go.

It looks like for around a grand we can have a petty well rated unit.

Thanks for all of the input.

 

[Thunderjet]

How hard is your water? Why is your water hard?

Pretty hard everywhere out this way.

Our plating shop has to pre treat all of their filtering water, and the shop is in Kansas.

Here on the east side of the KC metro, it's all limestone. IDK what that does, but I'm pretty sure it's not good.

We have faucets that are getting ready to be changed and they're only six years old.

 

[GregSY]

I consider water softeners - good ones - the single best thing you can do for skin care.

I'm not a fan of tankless heaters unless there is a serious space problem. People talk about the losses (expense) of storing hot water. That sounds reasonable, except tank-style heaters are insulated pretty well and water holds heat pretty well when it's contained. If you turn off your 40 gallon heater at 9PM, the water will still be pretty warm 12 hours alter.

Here in Texas, with a heater installed in the garage or attic....I am convinced the heater hardly ever turns on. You can take a shower without turning the hot water on at all.

 

[jccaclimber]

My parents have a tankless water heater, have for the past 5 to 10 years. Hard water area and no softener. Once a year he flips the valves at the ends and follows the manufacturer’s descaling directions.
No issues with flow rate vs. temperature. The only issue he has is that the water sitting in the pipes near the heater is no longer hot and he originally plumbed the house with large diameter pipes. The result is that you have to run the sink for a minute if you want to wash you hands with warm water at the kitchen sink or upstairs bathroom, IE outlets far from the heat source.

 

[memphisjed]

After getting a tankless a few years ago going back to a tank water heater is not something I would want. Summer utility bill is much lower, winter maybe higher but hard to tell so little difference. Endless hot water, not warm water, boil the work off you hot. Less humidity in the basement.
The cost difference installed was significant, most of that being paying for skilled people to run a new gas line from the meter instead of the multiple handyman special spider web of lines running from house heater or stove to water heater or stove to water heater... I really couldn’t tell which way was flow direction. They did a proper line with tees and segment shut offs.

 

[Superbowl]

Tankless cost way more than a simple tank unit. In my area about 2.5 times. You will never save enough to make up the difference. Especially in a cold climate where for 6 months the heat lost from the tank helps heat your house. Lose power with a tankless--no hot water. Lose power with a tank style- you still have 40-50 gallons of hot water to use for the next 12-24 hours.

Tankless do take up much less space. I have had issues in townhouses and condos where the builder put the water heater in a very tight closet. New Federal regulations caused water heater sizes to grow substantially for more insulation. These new larger tanks do not fit in the tight spaces so tankless was the way to go.

 

[jaguar36]

I put in a Bosch gas tankless about ten years ago. It's certainly saved us money, although I did the install myself. If you have to hire a plumber I bet it still pays for itself, although then it would be because they last much longer than tank type.

It's a bit of a mixed bag. Never running having to worry about running out of hot water is wonderful and our gas bill is alot lower. But it does take a bit to warm up. It's not a big deal for the faucets/shower thats near the water heater, but the ones at the other end of the house its a bit of a pain. Power outages don't matter, before we got a generator I had a battery backup for it. Since it only uses electricity for the electronics it ran for days on the battery.

 

[deltap]

I live in an area of only moderately hard water. I have a softener and iron filter and use one natural gas tankless for both radiant heat and domestic hot water. After 3 yrs no problems. I have a high eff unit that vents with plastic pipe. There is a great deal more complexity in the tankless type. More electronics to fail. When something does fail repair cost can be very high. Stepper motor and combustion air fan produce more noise than I would have thought. Installation and regular service are critical to success. Financially I think its a crapshoot.

 

[MrWhoopee]

I asked my plumber a couple of years ago. He was quite positive about gas-fired tankless, did not recommend electric. Going from electric tank type to tankless required major upgrade to wiring and breakers, still do not perform well.

 

[BT Fabrication]

Exactly the info I wanted right there^^^^^^^^^

Do you think it was worth the added expense?

whats you PPM hardness to start?
anything over 50 is reccomended to have a water softener.

 

[BT Fabrication]

my 50 gallon standard tank, I figure uses $6 in natural gas all month. Pretty cheap to me.
tankless only thrive if its intermittent use. like once a month at a cottage or something like that. Other then that the cost isn't justifiable, unless you have a massive house and bathrooms at both ends and you want instant hot water at both sides.

 

[EmGo]

I'm curious ? Electric one here is about $100 or a bit more if you want bigger better more famous, has a cold water in and a hot water out and an electric plug to a 220 outlet and that's all, hangs on the wall easy or in a closet or something if you like, 7,000 watts, no vent, maybe an hour to mount, big enough for a two-person apartment, kitchen bath washing machine maybe not all at once ... has electronics so should last about five years then some thirty cent chip will die, toss it and put in a new one, total cost about $20 a year ... No ?

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[MwTech Inc]

Tankless not to be confused with instant water heaters.
Tank or tankless will yield the same results if your "faucet" is 50 ft away, cold water will be in the lines until the hot gets there.
Only way to not have this is a loop system.

"tankless only thrive if its intermittent use."...not really, family with high water use will much prefer a tankless as the water will never go warm or cold, always hot,
Put a tankless and a tank side by side and turn the water on full, 1 hr later only one will be hot........2hrs later only one will be hot....3hrs...etc............

 

[Rob F.]

Tank or tankless will yield the same results if your "faucet" is 50 ft away, cold water will be in the lines until the hot gets there.
Only way to not have this is a loop system.

Isnt the only way to have a recirc loop with a tankless heater is to have a small tank?