OT Please tell your friends who use to read here to come back

[Thunderjet]

I see no reason to allow it at all. Just creates discord and doesn't solve anything.

I have to respectfully disagree.
Just as there are many different ways to machine a certain thing, there are many different viewpoints to any topic.

I will admit to being a black or white type of thinker when I was younger. I do lean towards the conservative side of government's role in daily life. I also see were they get it right. (didn't used to see that a lot)

This place has tinted my viewpoint on many things, just because I have to read the stuff folks like you bring up. And that's a good thing.

I'm starting to see the grey areas more.

There are many things going on right now that have changed all of us and the way we think about shit.

I know that the shit show that was the pandemic, and how it was talked about should be a college class for how NOT to deal with that type of thing. And just so we're clear here:

Trump fucked it up
Biden fucked it up
Saint Fauci fucked it up(and made MILLIONS from stock buys/sells)
ALL of the congress critters fucked it up
Almost all of the governors fuck it up


So because of that deal, many folks don't know who to believe and that spills over into forums like this. I value almost all of the opinions voiced here.

So I say simply make a sub-forum called the snake pit. No holds barred.

If there are folks or opinions or topics that are sketchy, move them there.

My 2 cents.

 

[Ox]

My feeling about that is that they should consider not allowing the stupid, malicious lies in the first place that cause those blowups. Or if they feel like dumping my response, that's fair, but also remove the dishonest crap that caused the situation. And it's never an instant reaction to the first instance, a "blowup" only occurs when someone consistently lies about something which I consider important. You know, minor things like bombing entire countries, killing a few million people, that sort of thing.

I'm kinda with Gar on this, I see no reason to allow it at all. Just creates discord and doesn't solve anything. If moderation were fair and intelligent, then discussion on touchy subjects could be productive. But that's pretty much like catching unicorn farts in a jar, not going to happen, so no point to consider it.

I have been a proponent of being able to ban certain members from certain boards, but apparently this software is not able to doo that.

It would seem that after 25 yrs of building message board software, that this would be a possibility, but apparently there just hasn't been enough call for the coders to build that option.

If it was possible, I am sure that you would have been banned from the board that you seem to not be able to control yourself on. And IM/HO that would have solved the issue for many of the folks that have either been outright banned, or have left b/c of fights and assholes on that board.

A cpl of you have yet to find a way to leave a sideways remark alone and walk on by, without a 2x counter attack, which then results in a battle. It's like Gaza.

So, the problem then becomes - if that person cannot be banned from just that board, is he enough of a problem to just ban from the site? There are still a few that walk a fine line. Eye fer'n eye leaves the whole world blind.


-------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Ox]

I have to respectfully disagree.
Just as there are many different ways to machine a certain thing, there are many different viewpoints to any topic.

I will admit to being a black or white type of thinker when I was younger. I do lean towards the conservative side of government's role in daily life. I also see were they get it right. (didn't used to see that a lot)

This place has tinted my viewpoint on many things, just because I have to read the stuff folks like you bring up. And that's a good thing.

I'm starting to see the grey areas more.

There are many things going on right now that have changed all of us and the way we think about shit.

I know that the shit show that was the pandemic, and how it was talked about should be a college class for how NOT to deal with that type of thing. And just so we're clear here:

Trump fucked it up
Biden fucked it up
Saint Fauci fucked it up(and made MILLIONS from stock buys/sells)
ALL of the congress critters fucked it up
Almost all of the governors fuck it up


So because of that deal, many folks don't know who to believe and that spills over into forums like this. I value almost all of the opinions voiced here.

So I say simply make a sub-forum called the snake pit. No holds barred.

If there are folks or opinions or topics that are sketchy, move them there.

My 2 cents.

I check into a nother site regularly that has recently actually implemented what you say. They call it the Monkey Barrel, but ...
There, you have to ask to be a part of it, and outsiders can't view it.
I have never asked to join that board.

It would seem that if their software was able to not allow anyone until the mod OK'd it, I don't know why that can't be done here. Would be nice to be able to keep the addicts away from the heroin.

I am not quite sure of why they did that, as I never saw much in any way that was heated, but apparently it happened now and aggin. But a bad day there was NOTHING like a good day here. But then - they're Canucks, so ...

I doo feel that the politics board is relivant as this site revolves around business, and a business that is greatly effected by world events and lines drawn in the sand. I just don't understand why every comment has to have an equal and opposite comment every time, let alone upscaled.

If I was running that Schidt Show over there, I would likely let the first comment through, and start tagging rebuttles that are there only to be seen/heard, and with heat, rather than just offering an opposite viewpoint. But I don't go there - even yet, so I still don't see it, I don't have any info to even know if I agree or disagree with Jag in how he handles it. I don't have time for that BS in my life. But if he is unfair to you, then maybe you should just show him, and not post there anymore? Mod'ing is a community service, and on that board - it is a thankless service at that.

Also, if someone was as belligerent to me as a mod as you (anyone, but back to EG for this porpoise) are to him, I'd send you packing a long time ago.
I doo this job for free. If you don't like the job that I (Jag) does, feel free to:
A) Complain to the management here.
B) Ask if you could be placed as a mod on that board in my (his) stead.


I am as far to the right as your gauge is going to reach. My wife used to describe me as a black and white man in a grey world. Over time I have been able to at least see the grey from here, and I have to just shut up and let someone talk on their own when they start in with the conspiracy theories and pro-Trump. I may interject a fact here and there, like there are typically 3000 derailments every year in the US. That is nothing any more new than a glacier calving in Greenland. It's just what sells advertising on the news channels decides what they report in their small times slots.

Maybe you and Milland could try a slightly different approach, or just stay away from areas that adjust your blood pressure?


----------------------

Peace Sells, But Who's Buying?
Ox

 

[jrmach]

FJB and that is the end of my rant

 

[eKretz]

So it took 9 pages to get to the heart of the matter.

If it isn't made more civil, you won't get professionals. Most people making their living in this trade won't waste their time wading through purse fights and playground tantrums to find good information. Not more than a couple times anyway.

PM has become nearly indistinguishable from Facebook. Someone posts a question, gadflys jump in with insults, posters with no clue who didn't understand the question or didn't digest it thoroughly post irrelevant responses, along the line someone manages to post something meaningful to the OP, then it devolves into exercise in claw sharpening between the usual suspects. Yes that's somewhat of an overgeneralisation but it's true enough often enough. The advantage here is the backlog of good info that can be searched, but the sort of people who contributed that database no longer frequent the board. Most of the productive conversations now are repeats.

I don't come here often anymore, and I don't recommend it to anyone except newbies, out of embarrassment.

Well, I guess I can see the point you're trying to make. But in my experience it's not perfectly accurate. Should we be looking to pull in professionals like white collar management? Or should we be looking to pull in professionals like blue collar working men? Because none of those that I know would be turned away by the behavior here, now that it's under a little better control at least. They might not like some of it, but they wouldn't run away. They'd stand up and call it out. If you want to make a change, you've got to be an active part of the solution. Not just walk away from the fight.

And your notation of it being like Facebook kind of makes my point. Human nature is human nature. We can police it as well as we are able, but if that policing becomes oppressive you drive people away as well. It's the spectrum in the middle that we are trying to shift toward.

 

[Mud]

Well, I guess I can see the point you're trying to make. But in my experience it's not perfectly accurate. Should we be looking to pull in professionals like white collar management? Or should we be looking to pull in professionals like blue collar working men? Because none of those that I know would be turned away by the behavior here, now that it's under a little better control at least. They might not like some of it, but they wouldn't run away. They'd stand up and call it out. If you want to make a change, you've got to be an active part of the solution. Not just walk away from the fight.

If you want the blue collar guys who just run machines and make parts and are satisfied with that, they spend their off hours concerned about sports and chasing girls and hunting and drinking. I call the higher level guys who want to advance in a career in mfg the professionals, that's who you should want here. Including the guys starting their own deals and who already own businesses. Most won't deal with the petty bullshit such as illustrated in this thread. (By the way, I saw the vitriolic rant against Oldwrench in this thread was removed, that is an indication of a good thing potentially happening)

FWIW, Oldwrench asked to have ALL of his posts removed and was refused. He did manage to get forum Mgt. to agree to remove his 9 year long thread about his own business and all the photos. PM is the lesser for his absence.

It's a truism that most people fight back by quitting. Certainly true when there's nothing to be gained by fighting back.

As for me wanting to make a change and staying to fight, I no longer care. What has been done so far is too little too late and I don't see a real change coming. Milacron illustrated clearly long ago he had no respect for me or for many others, that was the end of me caring. I continued to participate because I had nowhere else to go. That's no longer the case. I come by to see what's for sale. And on occasion I still offer help to a clearly stated problem that I have specific information to offer, I seem to be wired that way, call it a weakness if you like. But a conversation here holds no interest for me because of where they lead.

I have more posters on my ignore list here than on all other forums and social media combined.
The ignore list is not a cureall. There are still replies to nasty posts, and the thread inevitably gets lead astray by them. Thermite was an example, as soon as he weighed in on a thread, the thread became about Thermite. In his absence, another offshore poster has taken up that mantle.

Please don't take it personally, I think you are doing good within the constraints you have. it's just my opinionated $.02.

 

[Ox]

OK, so have you pinged management to have you replaced as mod of your sections?


Also, so you say too little too late - of what?
Have you had bad experiences beyond the Political board?

And I just found out that Wrench left "mad".
I had no clue. I never noticed it in any of the posts that I read.
I don't know about this thread of his that you refer to. (Rant agginst Wrench)
Where was that, and what about? And who with?
Somebody didn't like his steering set-up?
I mean, what about Wrench would piss anyone off?
Again - unless it was on the "other" board.

Dualkit kept ranting on and on _ on his way out the door about lack of modding.
I have (had) no clue what he was going on about.
Personally I found that interesting that HE was the one calling that out, as anywhere that I came accrost his posts, HE would have been the one that was out of bounds.
So again - I am guessing that his rant was from the "other" board once again.
And here we are, people that can't take the heat, but have yet to figger out that they don't have to go into the kitchen.

Jag seems to have cooled the joint down from my vantage point, and many posts in this thread, and yet some find that he is the problem?


----------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[Garwood]

If you want the blue collar guys who just run machines and are satisfied with that, they spend their off hours concerned about sports and chasing girls and hunting and drinking. I call the higher level guys who want to advance in a career in mfg the professionals, that's who you should want here. Including the guys starting their own deals and who already own businesses. Most won't deal with the petty bullshit such as illustrated in this thread.

Couldn't agree more.

I wonder what this place looks like monetarily? The expenses VS what it brings in with ad revenue? I can't imagine anyone's getting rich off this place. It probably comes down to what you brought up before- More traffic equals more clicks equals more dollars and makes it worthwhile to keep this place afloat with a quantity over quality strategy.

 

[Ox]

Well - button pushers aren't scouring the internet to talk button pushing.

But I would take offense to being called a white collar.


--------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[plastikdreams]

Moderation on this site has really been improved in the last year. No one of us is heavy fisted nor do we have a reactionary culture. One thing that helps us is we have our own section where we can put our heads together and think things through before action is taken. Another thing is the implementation of warnings, this gives us an intermediary between doing nothing and banning. It's not like it was before, and sometimes we get called names for doing what we do. But we all are working towards the betterment of this site. Some feathers are gonna get rustled but it's just part of the process. We all have our own areas but that doesn't mean we can't say something in others.

We are doing a good job, it's a large task given how out of control things were. We aren't here to overmoderate either. And we are always open to suggestions. Plus you can do a report or message us directly if you think something is not right.

 

[Richard King]

Mud and Garwood are some of the favorite posters that I like to read. For a while Mud was gone and I figured he had past away and then one day there he was. I had missed his fun to read threads. Garwood has been a favorite of mine since I met him and his daughter....she was maybe 4 and cute as hell. She must be in her teens now. He contributes as he is a one or 2 man machine shop and is really good at what he does. I met Mud too and he is sharp and has a machine shop so he can do repairs to his fleet of trucks if I remember right.

Back to the reason I posted this thread, hopefully YOU members that belong to Facebook or another forum, please ask people to come here and contribute.
Thank You and I hope we can either close this thread or get back to the happy times ...lol

 

[BoxcarPete]

Moderation on this site has really been improved in the last year. No one of us is heavy fisted nor do we have a reactionary culture. One thing that helps us is we have our own section where we can put our heads together and think things through before action is taken. Another thing is the implementation of warnings, this gives us an intermediary between doing nothing and banning. It's not like it was before, and sometimes we get called names for doing what we do. But we all are working towards the betterment of this site. Some feathers are gonna get rustled but it's just part of the process. We all have our own areas but that doesn't mean we can't say something in others.

We are doing a good job, it's a large task given how out of control things were. We aren't here to overmoderate either. And we are always open to suggestions. Plus you can do a report or message us directly if you think something is not right.

Looking at it that way, I'd have to agree. Note that all the people complaining about the moderation lately are the ones who keep getting warnings. I've shared my opinion many times, and sometimes it's even controversial, but haven't got any warnings because I try to keep it civil.

Thanks for putting in the work, mods, especially as volunteers.

 

[Milland]

Maybe you and Milland could try a slightly different approach, or just stay away from areas that adjust your blood pressure?

Umm, dude? What? I've been pretty quiet regarding the politics lately.

Now, perhaps that's due to the snakes (in government and the USSC) being thoroughly revealed without my "help", but still I'm a bit confused you'd put a hit on me like that.

 

[Ox]

Nothing of note that I know of "lately", but historically - you like to up the ante if anyone posts anything pro Right - on what is very much a "Self Employed" forum. Just a statement of fact. I've not quite figgered out why a cpl of you come here, unless you simply enjoy the fight? And as mods, we are trying to ferret out those that are just here for the beer, if that is their only (or the bulk there of) reason for being here.

I'm not anti Milland. I enjoy your posts typically, out here in Tech threads and such.
But I know how you can git, from times that you have let the other board bleed into other sections in the past.

"Does member A contribute more positive than negative?"

Shirley we all have some of each. I don't pretend to be all solution. I take pride in being .. 15% ... problem.
But if someone is more problem than solution, he stands a good chance of being shown the door if he cannot be reigned in.


---------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[jaguar36]

What? I've been pretty quiet regarding the politics lately.

I, for one, very much appreciate that!

 

[standardparts]

Moderation on this site has really been improved in the last year. No one of us is heavy fisted nor do we have a reactionary culture. One thing that helps us is we have our own section where we can put our heads together and think things through before action is taken. Another thing is the implementation of warnings, this gives us an intermediary between doing nothing and banning. It's not like it was before, and sometimes we get called names for doing what we do. But we all are working towards the betterment of this site. Some feathers are gonna get rustled but it's just part of the process. We all have our own areas but that doesn't mean we can't say something in others.

We are doing a good job, it's a large task given how out of control things were. We aren't here to overmoderate either. And we are always open to suggestions. Plus you can do a report or message us directly if you think something is not right.

It could be that moderation has really improved and that is a good thing.
Looking over some threads from the past, 2021 in paricular, I'd guess that a lot of bad blood came about due to the pandemic--and I want to state this is just my opinion.
Any forum generally has it's share of people that get out of bed on the wrong side as they say, or maybe been drinking or in a lot of cases have other things in their lives going on where they are getting ready to blow and need to vent some steam, but in so many ways the pandemic really fucked many people up not only physically but mentally---Lots of scars that ain't ever going away.
The big event in 2020/2021 most certainly amped tempers and all things political up.
Maybe, just maybe if you were in a certain type of business that was literally 100% shut down for almost 2 years and on top of it felt a bond to the people you employed, and could only sit back and pray your business would survive for who knows how long then maybe a bit of tolerance might have made things easier--but of course most are not gonna use PM as a venue for exposing weakness. Most of us know of one or more businesses, or careers that did not survive, the "stress test".
No doubt some bad feelings existed and other differences at some level as is common in life along with ass-holes will always be ass-holes, but the shutdowns really shaped and dominated attitudes and created stress that many had no way to deal with.
Again, just my opinion and at this point all the mods can do is referee the best they are able to, and do what 'ya gotta do.

 

[Milland]

I, for one, very much appreciate that!

Heh! I prefer not to have to push things myself, and don't have to now that the press and courts (except the SC) are doing their thing.

 

[PDW]

So you start off bitching about name callers, only to name call in the next sentence?

Then, you tack on ANOTHER name calling at the bottom for good measure.

Take your meds please.

EG was/is 200% correct about gunner. IIRC he tried his shit on PM as well but didn't last thanks to the moderator(s).

It's people like him that destroy forums.

As for new members, shrug, aside from dickheads like digger doug who seem to think it's a badge of honour to run people off, generally this is a decent place. There aren't many rules but there are SOME. As has been said, you can ask questions about HOW to do stuff, you just can't mention that you're trying to do it on some cheap-arse POS machine. If that's too constraining, so sad, there are other places to go.

And for those who want to ask if they can bolt a cheap X-Y table to a cheap drill press and have a milling machine, that has been answered dozens of times, the answer hasn't changed, asking it simply reveals that either you've done no basic homework and/or you've decided to do it anyway and are here seeking affirmation. And the answer is still NO.

Ditto for other questions asked over and over again.

PDW

 

[Ox]

You should git a warning point for such abuse of mathematics on a machinist site.


----------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

 

[EndlessWaltz]

I am an older millennial. I started with some manual machining. I consider myself a professional. I am the guy everyone says they need but unwilling to pay. The industry can change and I can help with that. I have been looking at attending some association meeting etc. However, from what I have seen and others have commented on (some closer to my age even) that now the thing to do is "automation" but really trying to do things on the cheap, lie to people in interviews to get them in because they can read a tape measure, and then expect me who paid for my degree to teach them EVERYTHING. We are talking machining 101, yet at the same time they disparage us as if we aren't worth are salt and it is so easy anyone can do it. They want to continue to pay low wages while Mcdonalds starts at $16hr. If you can't start a 19yr old with a 2yr degree(even if he needs some hand holding) at $18hr with a nice 40hr week you are the problem.

If this forum has made changes that I know are to increase revenue. That can be a problem as it can also increase the amount of stupid.