OT: Solar Panels for house

[Joe Gwinn]

Never mind all the R-value and solar sales talk. The single most powerful and simplest thing one can do to decrease heating and cooling costs is to hunt down and plug all the air leaks. In my house (stucco, but much being un-insulated), this was best achieved by replacing a bunch of old and decrepit windows and plugging some holes. The effect was dramatic.

 

[neilho]

Not anymore, most of the 3G networks have shutdown now. I had to run a hardline to our inverter to replace the 3G modem.

Yes, most have. And you shortened your wireless link to zero. Good for you.

 

[neilho]

Machine shop related solar question.
All these inverters, micro inverters. Bla bla.
How will they react to me pounding my panel with 2 spindles accel/decel all day? Will I damage them eventually?
(None of my machines back feed at decel.)

In a gridconnected system, no effect. The inverters put out what they put out and any current draws above inverter production are handled by the grid. Offgrid is a bit different.

Don't pound your panel too much, your spindle might fall off.

 

[neilho]

Never mind all the R-value and solar sales talk. The single most powerful and simplest thing one can do to decrease heating and cooling costs is to hunt down and plug all the air leaks. In my house (stucco, but much being un-insulated), this was best achieved by replacing a bunch of old and decrepit windows and plugging some holes. The effect was dramatic.

Yes, it would be.

And if a blower door test were done, you'd have some quantified results and have an idea of indoor air quality. It is possible to make a house so tight that indoor air quality suffers. Though it sounds like your place isn't that tight yet.

In the weatherization biz, insulation and airsealing are regarded as equally important. So imagine the increase in comfort in your house if you insulated it too.

 

[Stirling]

Yes, it would be.

And if a blower door test were done, you'd have some quantified results and have an idea of indoor air quality. It is possible to make a house so tight that indoor air quality suffers. Though it sounds like your place isn't that tight yet.

In the weatherization biz, insulation and airsealing are regarded as equally important. So imagine the increase in comfort in your house if you insulated it too.

A lot of northern homes are going very air tight and having a air exchanger bring in fresh air/heating it with the rejected air (like a shop make up air unit)

We have a “home efficiency inspector” coming in as part of a Canadian incentive.
I’m looking at windows/air leaks first. Then likely solar of the numbers work out well.

Truily a new furnace would be my biggest efficiency boost. 1987 furnace is likely 50% efficient. A new one would be well over 90%
(I’m approx 1000km north of the American border, furnace gets used a lot) bit no fossil fuels allowedin this incentive. Heat pumps are allowed but not used around here. Gets to cold, electricity is to costly vs gas (we got a lot of gas here)

It’s a pretty slick incentive tho.
$5000 grant and a up to $40,000 10 year loan interest free from the fed.
Jist being an interest free loan makes solar possibly a null cost. Especially the way electrical rates have been going up.

 

[michiganbuck]

I think it would be good to check one's electric bill to see how many amp hours are used, then compare that with 60% of the advertise claim of the panels.
It seems there is a lot of BS in solar advertising.
It is darn shame the my tax dollars go to some other persons purchases.

likely the USA will get blown up before climate change gets worse.

 

[lucky7]

You’re way far north for any reasonable return on investment with solar. Psst: geothermal…

If you lived in Texas I’d be singing a different song. Heck even Wisconsin!

I just looked up out of curiosity- our 1800 sq foot house and 800 sq foot heated shop. Combined gas and electric bill with over 90% efficiency gas furnace in house as of three years ago (replaced a 70% furnace with cracked heat exchange) is approx $2500/year. No wood burning. No solar. Electric is going up with more air conditioning weeks per year. There’s still just no way for solar to pay back with how inefficient it is in the north. Geothermal when we built 20+ years ago was a fifteen year payback but we didn’t have the money then and now don’t want the hassle.

I’m interested in what the energy auditor says.

 

[Trboatworks]

It is darn shame the my tax dollars go to some other persons purchases.

They don’t.

https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/2021/02/f82/Guide%20to%20Federal%20Tax%20Credit%20for%20Residential%20Solar%20PV%20-%202021.pdf

The program incentivizes individuals to invest their own resources towards restructuring the energy use profile of the nation.
Same as with tax credits towards new windows etc:

Federal Income Tax Credits and Incentives for Energy Efficiency

Information updated 12/30/2022 The Inflation Reduction Act of 2022 provides federal tax credits and deductions that empower Americans to make homes and buildings more energy-efficient to help reduce energy costs while reducing demand as we transition to cleaner energy sources.

www.energystar.gov

Perhaps worth posturing that such investment is mistaken but the government has concluded that it is not.

I see it as an interesting question this cost of energy to a nation.
I would say such expenditure is parasitic and in a relationship to other economies provides a competitive advantage to the more efficient.

That’s just a guess though and is no doubt a more complex issue than I am making it.

 

[michiganbuck]

It seems tax credits for one, and then some others have to make up the slack.
If E cars and E other stuff is good then the benefactors should pay for their stuff.
IMHO.

 

[mattthemuppet]

It seems tax credits for one, and then some others have to make up the slack.
If E cars and E other stuff is good then the benefactors should pay for their stuff.
IMHO.

that's no different to any other tax credits or deductions - like the mortgage interest deduction, of which the majority goes to the those earning over $75k a year, or the tax credits the oil industry sucks down, or the tax breaks states fall over themselves to shower on companies moving to their state with seriously variable returns (there's one in Wisconsin that comes to mind). You could even argue, and some do, that people without children shouldn't have to pay for other peoples kids to go to school.

At the end of the day we (well you, technically) elect our officials and those officials decide what to do with our money. If you don't like what they're doing, vote them out. Or if that doesn't work, grumble about it on the internet

 

[michiganbuck]

Qt;:Or if that doesn't work, grumble about it on the internet
*Perhaps grumbling will get more voters to pay attention to who they elect.

 

[Trboatworks]

The government is doing something right or maybe just not getting in the way.
This recovery profile is very nearly a copy of the climb out from the 2007/08 recession- the US didn’t hit the same lows, leads recovery sooner and stronger than peers:

 

[chad883]

The government is doing something right or maybe just not getting in the way.
This recovery profile is very nearly a copy of the climb out from the 2007/08 recession- the US didn’t hit the same lows, leads recovery sooner and stronger than peers:

View attachment 403543

It looks like GDP is up 7 or 8%. Don't forget that inflation is up 19% over that same time period. Seems like false to me. Maybe I just don't understand what they are telling me though.

 

[Trboatworks]

The graph is a simple illustration that in comparison to G7 peers the growth in the US was less damaged and recovered faster from the effects of the pandemic.

A similar graph of relative inflationary pressures from the same event would also show how the US economy responded in comparison to the same peers.
The US is similarly leading the trend to wash out inflation back towards pre-pandemic levels.

Here is one such comparison:

 

[chad883]

If inflation is double the GDP growth, does that mean we have really recovered?

 

[Trboatworks]

Recovery might be phrased as a return to long term trends.
The pandemic was a perturbation with an accelerated inflationary pressure and suppressed growth.

The US I would say has fully returned to the long term growth line while inflation is now nearing pre pandemic levels.

I guess one could say the inflationary pressures associated with growth are again in balance.

It’s an interesting topic.
Here is something and there is much more to read up on:

https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/the-us-economic-recovery-in-international-context-2023#:~:text=The%20economic%20recovery%20from%20the,faster%20than%20after%20recent%20recessions.

And this is the comparison I referenced in first thrust into this topic.
The US and G7 peers recovering from the 2008 recession.
And….
Credit where due to Canada.

 

[hanermo]

It is REALLY beneficial to the energy utilities when homeowners install (preferably large) PV systems.

The high voltage grid load goes down, the local transformer needs go down, total power produced goes up, and all the investment is done by the end consumer.
And grid reliability goes up.
And the power utility pays zero to 0.02€, typical, for power it then sells to the other consumers for 0.20€, typical.

Short and medium term the power utilities make out extra money, a lot.

Medium-long term, is complex.
The power utilities will perhaps be more of a transmission-grid provider and ensure stability.
And the ever rising power costs are likely to decline.

Where someone with a farm or a large roof produces extra power, this also goes to feed energy to people in cities.
So it´s not like they get left out.
And fewer new power stations are needed, and less natgas/fuels for them.

 

[jim rozen]

"You could even argue, and some do, that people without children shouldn't have to pay for other peoples kids to go to school."

Ah, a fool's errand: attempting to change a poster's opinion's by applying (gasp) logic. No matter how persuasive your logic, the end result will still be the eternal bubbering reply: "WHAAA WHAA WHA, other people getting ME to pay for THEIR STUFF!!!"

Regrets, sir.