Parker/Eurotherm 514C/507 4Q SSD DC Retrofit into 1961 10EE Modular

[thermite]

This series field is what Thermite advocates leaving out in post #68 on this thread. I’m just wondering if anyone has tried to include it per factory original.

PM has a Medium-length thread on that several YEARS ago as explored "the ways" including use of a packaged FWB rectifer to insure its polarity was the right way when run in reverse.

There's two main tribes - compounded shunt and compensated shunt but variations within each as to how implemented.

Long story short? As a 6 HP "4Q" drive the SSDs have sensors and reserve to deliver fast and stable response to loads as don't need the help and don't need to fight it, either.

Compare the SSD regulation figures., over which relative RPM range, between internal IR sensing and use with a tachogenerator for feedback.

Note that the tacho signal, when used, goes into the same Op Amp .The rest of the drive has the merit to hold the better figure already. Tacho just enables it to "see better".

 

[everettengr]

This series field is what Thermite advocates leaving out in post #68 on this thread. I’m just wondering if anyone has tried to include it per factory original.

the series field S1 and S2 are in series with the motor armature.
i've run the motor with and without the series field and honestly don't find a big difference in performance. (not sure why, maybe the motor gurus can explain) i believe i have currently connected but would have to check to be sure. it will work either way you wire it up.

 

[thermite]

the series field S1 and S2 are in series with the motor armature.
i've run the motor with and without the series field and honestly don't find a big difference in performance. (not sure why, maybe the motor gurus can explain) i believe i have currently connected but would have to check to be sure. it will work either way you wire it up.

It is HIGHLY current-flow dependent for strength, so exhibits a very "load related" touch. Near-zero effect at light loading,even if wired bass-ackwards to favour reverse.

The nuisance is directionality.

If reverse is used a lot for cutting - such as threading AWAY from shoulders - leaving it simply "hard-wired" causes higher loads to REDUCE power and DROP RPM instead of trying to hold it up.

If reverse is use primarily for unloaded rapiding, then BFD. Just hardwire it to favour forward running.


I did say "nuisance"? MG-era "large frame" 3 HP motor is "straight shunt", doesn't have that winding. The piggyback exciter does have. But it is never reversed. So that JF works!

 

[bll230]

I have the small frame Reliance 3 Hp motor, Everett has the 5 HP GE. I have the series winding hardwired forward. Hasn’t been an issue because 1, I don’t thread much, 2, when I thread I go very slowly because of lack of proficiency (see #1).

In normal turning the Parker/Reliance is very,very smooth and capable.

 

[Cal Haines]

here is my 514C/507 control. the pot on top is for fwd/rev 4Q control 0 to ~1200 rpm. the pot on the bottom is for field weakening base speed to 3000 rpm. i'm using the ESLR lever micro-switches to engage run on both the 514C/507.

View attachment 293061

Do you have relays to make sure that the armature is at 100% during field weakening and the field at 100% in the base speed region, or do you rely on the operator setting the pots correctly?

Cal

 

[thermite]

Do you have relays to make sure that the armature is at 100% during field weakening and the field at 100% in the base speed region, or do you rely on the operator setting the pots correctly?

Cal

I LIKE mine independent, actually.

When BOTH are reduced, instead of higher speed, you have an adjustable "torque limiter".

Think reducing risk of tap breakage. "Sometimes", some sizes, anyway.

 

[bll230]

No interlocks on mine. I have the two pots next to each other wired so that with pots full counterclockwise the armature is zero, field is full. Turn first pot full clockwise, armature is full voltage, move hand to next pot, start turning it clockwise, field goes down to full RPM, 4000 on mine. To slow down, turn pots CCW. Field goes to full, then armature goes to zero.

The only disadvantage to this setup is when the field is weakened the dynamic braking is weakened too.

The Parkers have two annoying features, the direction is controlled by the RPM knob, rather than a forward/reverse setting and a speed control separate, and dynamic braking is 0 rpm setting, so when you set 0 rpm to brake spindle, it fights you turning spindle by hand to measure, inspect etc.

The brake issue, I have a timer relay to hold the brake on until the spindle stops, and then it disengages the drive’s run command so the drive is in neutral.

The for/rev issue, I use a relay to swap the outer two pot wires on the armature control pot so that the drive is at identical speed but in reverse.

I have designed a geared arrangement (I take any opportunity to make gears!) that uses one knob to turn the two pots in proper sequence, just haven’t gotten around to making it yet. Maybe this winter.

 

[thermite]

The only disadvantage to this setup is when the field is weakened the dynamic braking is weakened too.

ISTR that Mark discovered something NOT in the manual?

That if you interrupt the control signal, the Analog logic does a "reset" and full braking is "there NOW"?

The Parkers have two annoying features, the direction is controlled by the RPM knob, rather than a forward/reverse setting and a speed control separate,

Default yes. And I lIKE it that way. But not the only option, RTFM for the sixth or seventh time, etc. There is a LOT on the many menus.

. and dynamic braking is 0 rpm setting, so when you set 0 rpm to brake spindle, it fights you turning spindle by hand to measure, inspect etc.

Only briefly. RTFM for the "I AM at Zero NOW, dammit!" status signal.

Many nice things can be done with that signal or its inverse. Field power suspense, or release of an electic friction brake for example.

See also diddling its 'trimmer' setting. This is how one can shake paint - by causing it to SEEK what it thinks is "Zero" even without a resolver. Or implement "creep".

The brake issue, I have a timer relay to hold the brake on until the spindle stops, and then it disengages the drive’s run command so the drive is in neutral.

Already built-in, per above. Check those inverted signals.

The 506/7/8 don't have that flexibility, but are "compatible enough" to tie some of the controls and alarm/fault signals into useful helpers.

Check that long terminal strip the 51X test rig for commissioning normally attaches to. MANY signals are there as both right-side up AND their inverse for convenience.

The for/rev issue, I use a relay to swap the outer two pot wires on the armature control pot so that the drive is at identical speed but in reverse.

I have designed a geared arrangement (I take any opportunity to make gears!) that uses one knob to turn the two pots in proper sequence, just haven’t gotten around to making it yet. Maybe this winter.

Linear sliders of several different lengths of stroke and a gate or cam plate cut of thin metal or phenolic stock is far easier as to flexibility of selecting what starts and ends where, at which side of FWD/REV at what rate of change, and how it is "synced" to another (Field) control circuit.

Add ten-turn trimmers at one end or both of the sliders and "move them" about without altering the cam / step / gate plate profile.

Switches can chose pre-sets biased as to FWD/REV so either one or the other can be used as "rapids" when returning the carriage for successive threading passes.

Those Alps and Bournes audio-studio control board linears line-up on stock perf-board.. Springs, actuator shapes and steps can be tested with scissors, Frisket knife, recycled file-folder or cheap kitchen counter knife-protector stock with taped-on movable edges.. and... ignorant rubber bands!

ROUND pots suck .... for R&D.... always in need of dial-cord, pulleys, anti-backlash or Geneva-gears and such that are never right the first-time if even EVER... "dail cord I like.

Smooth, a speng for no backlash, simply cross it for reverse, fairlead it around corners, can do all manner of clever s**t and ganging with very cheap stock "pulleys" and in small space.

For the linears, weed-wacker kevlar can slide the "valve body" plate about from whatever knob or lever is handy. See "GM Hydramatic". 1941 Oldsmobile.

Or a WECO Central Office "panel" switch.

 

[everettengr]

my setup is similar to @bll203. one pot (top one in photo) for fwd/rev from 0 to ~1200rpm (base speed) when field is full strength.
to increase beyond base, i use the bottom pot for field weakening to my max 3000 rpm.
there are no interlocks. operator needs to understand what each pot does.
i am also using a timing relay to obtain braking to 0 rpm before RUN is automatically switched off.
@bll230 has a reversing relay that i do not have. to get reverse, i must turn the top pot controlling the armature.
i used the voltage table settings from the Monarch wiring diagram to set voltages for 200 rpm and 2000 rpm.

 

[thermite]

my setup is similar to @bll203. one pot (top one in photo) for fwd/rev from 0 to ~1200rpm (base speed) when field is full strength.
to increase beyond base, i use the bottom pot for field weakening to my max 3000 rpm.
there are no interlocks. operator needs to understand what each pot does.
i am also using a timing relay to obtain braking to 0 rpm before RUN is automatically switched off.
@bll230 has a reversing relay that i do not have. to get reverse, i must turn the top pot controlling the armature.
i used the voltage table settings from the Monarch wiring diagram to set voltages for 200 rpm and 2000 rpm.

The linear slide pots (I sent you samples?) were tested early-on, SSD still on the bench, naked motor(s) - 3 HP large AND "small" frame safely around fifteen feet away.

Intentional over-Voltage and "failed-field" overspeed to potentially "destructive" testing high on the dance-card.

I had four possible DC motors for that first round-dial, and that was not an accident.

The "design goal" should resemble a trackhoe or fighter-plane's single-"Joyce stick" lever, mounted right and below the 'arf nut lever adjacent the oil pump sump.

10EE is a "short reach" to the HS or TS ends from the operator position at the carriage, but a VARIABLE reach, depending on carriage position in a cut, and what yer hands are ALREADY working at.

I learnt to appreciate ALL controls having a fixed reach-and habituate-able relationship for "touch reliably, no need of distraction to LOOK" positions off the back of..

..fast motorcars, sore dangerous ag, MHE & construction equipment, and slow aircraft..

... easily as much as off big old man-eater lathes, ten or twelve foot beds, with shaft and rod-actuated controls, all "right here", on the carriage so yah had a fighting chance of living long enuf' to go bald or grey, not have s**t go pear-shaped and mess-up yer whole day whilst on a foot pilgrimage to pay a visit to the magical adjacent lands of the distant headstock!

"Overkill?" For a short, squat, 10EE? Perhaps so.

But I'm set in my ways over such detalls. Schaublin and Cazeneuve among the many who have implemented the same ergonometric world-view as to what the trite phrase among motorcar mags says, over and over again as expected, not just praise:

"all controls fall readily to hand".

Might not prevent f**-ups. Surely removes the crutch of "confusion excuse" for em!

Think early Beech "Bonanza" aircraft. Ye've just proudly executed a "squeeker" of a landing, now taxiing to the admiration of the usual onlookers, motor at idle, prop still turning, and yah reach for the electric flap retraction switch to clean-up the aircraft...

Flaps ignore yer wishes.

.. the landing gear yer ass is perched atop of obediently tries as best it can to fold up into the wells. The costly prop tries its valiant best to dig bird-watering holes into the tarmac and ruin the crankshaft as a "freebie".

The now-humbled Bonanza "takes a knee" for the crowd to kiss the tarmac with its belly. Clearing that runway or taxiway expeditiously will now add to cost, and another Darwin legend is born outta your financial ass.

Ergonometrics. Gone badly wrong.

Not I. I flew fixed gear!

Cheaper when a man kens his limitations?

 

[everettengr]

The linear slide pots (I sent you samples?) were tested early-on, SSD still on the bench, naked motor(s) - 3 HP large AND "small" frame safely around fifteen feet away.

i tried a lot of variations of dial pots, single turn pots, 10-turn pots, precision pots, linear pots, etc...
i finally settled on a continuous single-turn precision pot for the 514C and a single-turn on a gear reduction for the 507.
the speed increase above base with the 507 is not proportional to rotation (or slide) of the pot.
initial speed increase is gradual and then becomes very sensitive to pot position at max speed.
for this reason, i like the geared mechanism thingy for my pot on the 507. it allows me to set and hold a specific speed easily.

 

[thermite]

the speed increase above base with the 507 is not proportional to rotation (or slide) of the pot.
initial speed increase is gradual and then becomes very sensitive to pot position at max speed.

THIS... is not unusual in the wider world, and one of the reasons why non-linear tapers had to come into existence for so many OTHER needs.

EASY.. for a DC Drive maker to specify linear-tapers for THEIR end of their contribution "blind", as it were, to whether the load responds in a linear manner or never.

Tachogenerator feedback wudda sorted that,

But only if we had the elusive "Field Regulator" circuit philosophy in the single-phase drive dirty beach sand.

EG: Field Supply in current mode as "outer loop", Armature supply inside loop, slaved to said "outer loop" for stable operation under varying load.

The "holy grail", in a manner of speaking, as to pushing already good performance to an even higher level, given MOST of a 10EE's entire useful RPM range IS in the "Field Weakened" zone.

514C's predecessor 1-P drive had a "partner" box it could work with as JF did this. But.. the capability migrated into 3-P ONLY DC drives, typically 10 HP and above. Because that's where the money is for OEM makers.

UNTIL.. we "get there", all the tacho does - your own experiments - is hard-nail the RPM whilst the weakening of the field simply drops the available reserve torque...WITHOUT being allowed to raise the RPM even a smidgen above "base" RPM, max Armature power.

Mind.. the main barrier to chasing it is that present performance half-synced and/or twiddled, tweaked, or just plain fiddled, is already more than good enough for nearly any realistic use.

Or:

What's it REALLY worth to us, to 24 kt gold-plate a 22 kt gold-coin, when a Silver Dollar was good enough for most work, already?

Annnd.. it really IS a "CNC world" out there.

Not a lot of meat left on the bones of hot-rodded "Grand-Old" all-manual legends any more than touring the nation in a Staggerwing Beech or a wind-up-side-window Stinson Voyager.

Much as I'd love to... until.. the ever-present noise-level, chronic need of dodging weather ... round-engine oil thirst... scarcity of fuels..

Faggedaboudit. XJ8-L keeps getting shorted so badly of her beloved 2-lane blacksnake-crooked blacktop rations -- I shall have to start trimming her computer-controlled retractable claws!

And Of COURSE I disable the silly Artificial High Speed Idiot of a computer!

Fool thing can't see even one INCH down the road ahead! Accelerometers are responding to ancient history, screwing up the equilibrium of setting up for the NEXT corner's drift, yet to arrive.

And so it is with a fine manual machine-tool.

The worn-bright NUT holding the con-trols must plan ahead and do the heavy-thinking FOR it.... ever and always...

I'm still good wit' dat'

Why TF else would we even bother to share our rations wit' 'em if there weren't the FUN of a bit of a challenge left in getting a good job out of 'em?

Any fool as can operate a Bic Biro or 'puter mouse can generate a "Purchase Order".

 

[rabler]

The only disadvantage to this setup is when the field is weakened the dynamic braking is weakened too.

The Parkers have two annoying features, the direction is controlled by the RPM knob, rather than a forward/reverse setting and a speed control separate, and dynamic braking is 0 rpm setting, so when you set 0 rpm to brake spindle, it fights you turning spindle by hand to measure, inspect etc.

I haven't tried yet but from looking at the Parker manual, I don't believe you need a full relay to swap the poles of the pot on the 514c to implement a reverse switch. Run the ends of speed pot from the Com (0v) to a on-on SPDT switch that selects between the +10 and -10v. Go for a three position switch and select between +10, Com and -10 and get a middle brake to stop position without losing the previous speed set point. Delay relay or Zero RPM output to disengage "run" shortly after stop is selected. I'm going to try this with the ELSR knob configured as spindle Forward/Stop/Reverse. (LH vs RH thread is too confusing). Similarly, the switch stop position should be able to select full field strength on the 507 pot.

I haven't tested this yet. One issue I can foresee is going from STOP to say full RPM Forward by the flip of a switch may not work well as starting from a dead stop with a weakened field isn't going to spin up quickly. A capacitor and diode in the 507 speed pot circuit might solve that, providing a delay in the field strength drop, with the diode taking the capacitor out of the circuit so that the field strength goes back to full current quickly on stop or manual slow-down command.

I need to get my CK back together so I can start on my 10EE rewire.

 

[thermite]

the switch stop position should be able to select full field strength on the 507 pot.

I haven't tested this yet. One issue I can foresee is going from STOP to say full RPM Forward by the flip of a switch may not work well as starting from a dead stop with a weakened field isn't going to spin up quickly. A capacitor and diode in the 507 speed pot circuit might solve that, providing a delay in the field strength drop, with the diode taking the capacitor out of the circuit so that the field strength goes back to full current quickly on stop or manual slow-down command.

Coupla side reminders:

514C-XX SSD's have "over-ride" terminals on the long TB. In case yah want less than the on-PCB resistive-determined min ramp up/down times. Check the schematic as well as the text.

(At least) the 3 HP "large frame" "Torquemada's revenge"
(just say that phonetically and you'll "get it in ONE about twisting power vs the 5 HP BUT... at higher base-RPM ones!)

... ceased responding with greater torque at around 140 VDC vs the data-plate 115 VDC.

The 507 has a fat choke in series as well. No contactors sucking on the same teat as Field power, and it has waay TF more than needed to begin with, being an "integral HP" DC Drive in its own right.

Now-ripple-filtered Field goes SILENT, same as the harmature with those chokes. It HAD been running with an annoying 120 Hz hum.

One WILL notice under hard accel it is now the CHOKES as "growl".. but no longer much grumbling and fretting off the cleaner, smoother, more gently-fed MOTOR!

Count a choke or transformer as "consumable" off the back of winding-stress fatigue. Hard-hammer a choke, constant change in length and diameter of the wire each half-cycle will fatigue a wire around 40 to 80 24-by. years in. Or less.

Didn't know they had "moving parts"? No foul. They are simply Engineered to BE "consumed" in terms easily as long or LONGER than a full human generation-spacing....or even (Eliptical coiled) full lifetime.

"whichever"..

They will still be making new chokes affordaby, ever failure day arrives.

They will not be making new 10EE-grade DC motors at anything remotely CLOSE to an affordable price. 12 large already and the RPM III - goodnessful as they are - is still NOT a match for the "large frame" smooth. Not quite.

Protect the treasured motor.

"QED"

In spite of which,, given SMOOTH-ED power? I just doos that 140 VDC Field power along with circa 275 VDC "harmature"..for improved ass kicking!

Mind .. .as with the kid born with the 15-inch penis... he only ever had to DISPLAY enough of it at a go to win a contest .... rather than be branded a freak, ALL the time!

 

[bll230]

I figured out a way to get full braking when running with field weakening on. EverettEng implemented it already on his modular type machine, I was wracking my brain trying to figure out how to implement it on my Wiad type, and then he questioned one of my thoughts. Turns out the modular used DPDT microswitches in the ELSR, the Wiad used SPDT microswitches.

He had double the number of switch poles to work with. I now have three DPDT switches ordered, will implement the field weakened braking, and may be able to simplify some of my other work.

 

[thermite]

I figured out a way to get full braking when running with field weakening on. EverettEng implemented it already on his modular type machine, I was wracking my brain trying to figure out how to implement it on my Wiad type, and then he questioned one of my thoughts. Turns out the modular used DPDT microswitches in the ELSR, the Wiad used SPDT microswitches.

He had double the number of switch poles to work with. I now have three DPDT switches ordered, will implement the field weakened braking, and may be able to simplify some of my other work.

THIS . is the nice thing about PM. The "other guy" has a good mind - and by and large we ALL do have - next seeker finds stuff the previous guys MISSED!

Until Mark discovered it, I had NO KLEW the SSD had that mode of resetting itself he put to effective use.

"Continue the march!"

 

[everettengr]

I put together a simple schematic detailing my setup of the 514C & 507. I also included the configuration used by @bll230 to allow forward and reverse control at the ELSR lever. I use the pot for the 514C for FWD and REV control.

514C_507 Wiring Schematic_PRINT.V1.3.pdf - Google Drive

with pictures: Google Drive Link

 

[texasgeartrain]

I put together a simple schematic detailing my setup of the 514C & 507. I also included the configuration used by @bll230 to allow forward and reverse control at the ELSR lever. I use the pot for the 514C for FWD and REV control.

514C_507 Wiring Schematic_PRINT.V1.3.pdf - Google Drive

That's awesome. Thanks for the print. We can download the pdf from the link.

I screen shot it, to try and post the pics here as well. The first being the entire print but maybe hard to read. The others will be the four corners magnified a bit.

The full print:



Top Left Hand side of print:



Top Right Hand side of print:



Bottom Left:



Bottom Right:

 

[everettengr]

good idea to break it up into pieces. i will try to keep the link up and functioning.
this is one area that has always been frustrating with PM, limited attachment options and resizing of images. PM could learn a lot from the cnc zone regarding attachments.
i also added a few newer photos of my final install of the various components.

 

[texasgeartrain]

i also added a few newer photos of my final install of the various components.

Added them where ? Could be I'm doing it wrong, but I only see 1 page with the schematic. If you happen to have pics in a similar fashion, and post link, I can screen shot and post them for you.