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Parker/Eurotherm 514C/507 4Q SSD DC Retrofit into 1961 10EE Modular

I saw the parker drive of BL230 here in Las Vegas and I was impressed. It was smooth and quiet and powerful and quick braking.

You should hear it with TWO chokes and filter caps, Field power filtered, too - not just Armature!

The belts and bearings are louder. Eat yer heart out Hardinge!

:)

Folks had been using the Eurotherm/Parker SSD drives for "a while" before ever I even started.

But BOTH the drive makers AND Reliance, a major DC motor-maker, published that a "ripple filter" (AKA "Choke") was REQUIRED, not optional. "RTFM".

Reliance call for it on any of their motors wound for over 180 VDC, even the newer lamination-framed squarish-looking ones optimized for SCR powering. Their "RPM" family or "Rectified Power Motor". Yaskawa/Magnetek had also published the "Quiet Elevator" circuit with a choke PLUS filter capacitors.

Human nature to RESIST "RTFM", ain't it?

:)

So most 10EE implementors were skipping that crucial smoothing choke.

Others were ignoring the need for minimum 80 Volts or better more at the AC input side than the desired DC output.

All we had to do to get SINGLE-PHASE DC Drives to do the do .. was honour both needs.

3-Phase DC Drives never were hard. Unless one did not HAVE good 3-Phase power, of course!

Go figure anyone should ever have THAT sort of annoyance?

In other PM threads.. "more coming".

At least two Solid State DC Drive brands have been proven to be able to work off RPC's.

And 10EE's LOVE plenty of CHOICES to keep their sweet spindles powered!

Whichever of you lot is working on the steam turbine alternative?
And how heavy a flywheel is needed for steam up-and-down?

Separate threads, please!

We're easily confused...

Amateurs, for example, think leadscrew reverse is "important", rather than simply "handy, now and then" VS BETTER solutions. See Hendey .. or the European Inch/Metric lathe builders in their legions.

And "Oh, BTW:".. ELSR happens to work just fine with Solid State Drives.

So covered. In this thread. From the outset.
And not just the one time.

Why, ever, would it NOT, what with better braking than OEM and even a "NOW AT ZERO RPM" hybrid logic sensing circuit no 10EE ever had before it?

FWIW-not-much?

Professionals only ever needed SPINDLE reverse. Anyone can turn a tool over or use a "back" toolpost. It was never that hard.

We thread AWAY from obstructions.. easily a hundred years.. and counting.
Hundreds of thousands of us by this late date.

Go figure it has ever and always been just that easy to discern the difference between genuine experience and the noisy pretense of reading-skills-challenged wannabee's?
 
This was non sense 10 yrs ago, and its complete crap now with "More to come"!

My innards were gutted. No tube board, no module, contactor relays missing, etc. etc.
You think I should have gone VFD, why?
Cost me about $500 to wire up the 514C/507. What does VFD cost?
You don’t think SSD drive works. Why?
You’ve never seen one and not willing to read technical documents for applicability and application of SSD drive.

I respect your opinion because you have a right to have it, exactly like me or as a matter of fact anybody else on this forum. But, my post on the forum was specifically created to help 10ee owners make a decision regarding their motor drive options. If we were sitting in the pub drinking beer we could have a discussion about the philosophical aspects of SSD, VFD, keeping tubes, etc. etc. In this case my post was very straightforward, and if all you can do is troll the post, then simply do not reply. I really do not care what is your opinion regardless of your years of experience, as much as I don’t care about people believing that dinosaurs were roaming with humans not long ago on the earth (some of them with 60 years of experience). There is nothing that makes you more right or correct than someone else – not you age, experience, money or whatever.

You have no credibility with your litany of angry mental rumblings.

001 copy.jpg
 
Excellent vid. Very professional ! Not sure what the barely perceptible soundtrack is in the backround, but I like it ! :D.
TOLD y'all it was quieter than any of the OEM drives once that ripple-filter went into the circuit!

I had a question about the ELSR. The way you are switching on both drives, essentially with the ELSR. Do you still retain normal function of the ELSR ?
(emp-asses-added)

Not exactly.

He IMPROVED on it!
Quite nicely, too!

As have others, since, as well.

:D

That's in the thread, already!
 
Excellent vid. Very professional ! Not sure what the barely perceptible soundtrack is in the backround, but I like it ! :D.

I had a question about the ELSR. The way you are switching on both drives, essentially with the ELSR. Do you still retain normal function of the ELSR ?

yeah, that's funny. i also noticed i could hear the stereo in the background when playing back the video. i think towards the end of the vid i'm hearing a little Neil Young :-)

youtube limits me to 15-minutes so i didn't have time to show the ESLR controls. i already have some of the video recorded, so i can post up a second video later this week.
 
yeah, that's funny. i also noticed i could hear the stereo in the background when playing back the video. i think towards the end of the vid i'm hearing a little Neil Young :-)

Welll.. MY hearing is going... or maybe it was wishful thinking?

But Spring of 2017 this puppy has been quietly making chips.. my one ... and those of OTHERS years earlier, yet?

I thot it was the Montovani Symphony Orchestra playing:

"Revenge is a dish best eaten long years cold".

:D

youtube limits me to 15-minutes so i didn't have time to show the ESLR controls. i already have some of the video recorded, so i can post up a second video later this week.

Bring it!

Engineers don' take prisoners!
 
EverettEng's lathe works very well. I have mine setup to accelerate and decelerate even faster. When I replaced the sliders in the back gear gearbox all clatter went away, so I tuned the decel to less than a second, with no noise or clatter. I have the ELSR wired to operate as original and with the lever up and down the spindle will start and stop essentially instantaneously at threading RPMs. BTW, I can remove the same amount or more material with my 3 HP small frame Reliance motor as EE can with the 5 HP GE. As Lectrician1 commented, extremely quiet and smooth. Re noise, this is my journey on noise:

Noise reduction efforts - 10EE
 
Awesome stuff, guys!

Proud of the lot of yah!

The only way left for me to beat on noise may be to lineshaft the bugger out the TS end and put all the motive power outdoors?

Y'all DO realize that no sooner does "dee dee" come off his ban but:

... multiple dozens of Solid State DC Drives 50 years or so in-service as well as our ones shall cease to function

... we will no longer be able to run our 10EE on a day over 90 Eff

... no one may make a chip any heavier than a strand of steel-wool wire

... no 10EE may ever turn work 'tween centres again?

Oy! The frustration!

NOT!!!

:D
 
i just added a vid showing the control setup on my lathe.

10EE Controls - YouTube

Thank you for that.

1150 or wotever "base" RPM 5 HP is good down to around 100 RPM?

The 690 RPM large-frame with field boosted to 140 VDC is good down to under 40 RPM.

When in back-gear? "Fractional" AKA 1 rev in 15 seconds or 1/4 of one RPM.

Not that there's much USE for that, but it sure is sweet at 100 RPM and upwards for large-swing faceplate work and such where there CAN be a need for low RPM.
 
i just added a vid showing the control setup on my lathe.

10EE Controls - YouTube

If you don't mind, and have an amp clamp on your multi-meter or the like. . .I'd be curious to know what kind of power consumption your system uses.

Measuring amps on a/c lines L1 & L2 incoming to lathe or drive system with power on but unloaded, lathe not operating. And maybe some amp readings while lathe is powered and working, on the same L1 and L2.

Its just a curiosity, we have been discussing possible 3 phase, or rpc driven drive systems. I'm wondering about actual readings verse specs and such. As an example I was asking here:
3 Phase Options for DC Drive Systems
 
If you don't mind, and have an amp clamp on your multi-meter or the like. . .I'd be curious to know what kind of power consumption your system uses.

Measuring amps on a/c lines L1 & L2 incoming to lathe or drive system with power on but unloaded, lathe not operating. And maybe some amp readings while lathe is powered and working, on the same L1 and L2.

Its just a curiosity, we have been discussing possible 3 phase, or rpc driven drive systems. I'm wondering about actual readings verse specs and such. As an example I was asking here:
3 Phase Options for DC Drive Systems

Charlie? It has been in the manuals since "Big Bang". Over fifty years already for the Sabina drive.

The 514C family Mark and I are using idles at UNDER 500 milliwatts. Half a Watt. Or less. That's all it needs to run its Analog/hybrid "brains" and LED's - whether waiting for orders ... or passing them on.

It "wastes" only 50 Watts as heat - the byproduct of switching in the ON to OFF transition zone - even when at full load. Lower load is proportionally less.

That's why DC drives under about 30 HP or even 50 HP do not ordinarily even have a cooling fan. A passive heat sink is more than enough. Some barely even get warm to the touch.

It is the very nature of "switched mode" power management goods that nearly all of the energy is transferred directly into the load.

Not a shred of mystery to it. It's in their books. Section 1-7 For the 514C.

Because design Engineers who wish to adopt the goods NEED to know before they select a drive and order it.

We have always needed to know in advance.

So the makers have expertise at measuring .. and lab gear Joe Average can only dream of. Even with MY budget!

And then we "RTFM". It's what we paid the buggers for.

Making a problem out of a solution is a waste of time and money.

DAMHIKT!!! Over $6,000 worth, so far... and counting...

But it has kept me out of pubs and brothels!

:D
 
.3-.4 amps when not running on the line just before the 514C, The 310 volt AC line.

Could was.

I'd want to measure that with a calibrated shunt, (which I have..) not with a clamp-on (three here, but one is AC-only).

Under an Amp is challenging with those.

Also depends on whether the onboard "crude" Field FWB is used ... or the coil to energize the onboard mechanical power contactor as an extra layer above "Enable" for the "Magnetic Starter" functionality option.

FWIW-not-much, I don't use either one of those.

Book says allow "up to" 3A for the Aux supply, including that coil, active, so doesn't seem to be used on your implementation, either?
 
Not a shred of mystery to it. It's in their books. Section 1-7 For the 514C.

Because design Engineers who wish to adopt the goods NEED to know before they select a drive and order it.

We have always needed to know in advance.

In troubleshooting, verifying, or even just note taking. This is one of the most valuable and practical tools, a multi-meter with amp clamp:

137.jpg

It takes all of 2 seconds to slip it on a line and take a reading.

We can read all the specs, charts, and data plates in the world, but they do not always translate to the actual reading on components hooked up and operational.

By doing an actual check of hooked up and operational components, we could verify exactly what its doing. No guessing or hoping, we'll see actual numbers first hand.

I encounter this sort of thing all the time in diesel power generation. Electrician claims engine is bad, won't carry a load. I ask why, how many amps is it pulling ?:

Electrician: I don't know.
me: who does know ? How about we put an amp clamp on it ?
Electrician: Well data tag bla bla bla. . .
me: ok, lets check.

We check and find amp draw at 400amps on motor starting of certain pumps. When figuring the engine's kw rating and what it can handle. . .well that's about 250 amps. So was the engine bad ? Doing a simple check answers a question.

Point being, doing a simple check should not be a problem I would think. Maybe it will verify expected numbers, maybe it won't. Might find weird numbers that make you want to check for a short or bad connection. I'm not asking for a day's labor :D. Just a simple check.
 
In troubleshooting, verifying, or even just note taking. This is one of the most valuable and practical tools, a multi-meter with amp clamp:

View attachment 329616

It takes all of 2 seconds to slip it on a line and take a reading.

Yes. "a reading".

But there's a HUGE HOLE in your electronic education.

Because it doesn't TELL you what you think it does.
Power Factor exists.

What you want to add is a power meter or a Wattmeter.

And a 'scope. Really. You do.

My Fluke and my Rigol both have "roll" mode'.
IOW, they can act like strip-chart recorders.

The Rigol can even feed that to a laptop. Or the network. Or just store it for later view and analysis. Rather a LOT of it!

Helluva deal! And Rigol has competition.
Plenty of it:

https://www.tequipment.net/oscilloscopes/

Good news is the powerco hangs the power-metering goods on the wall as a normal part of their service contract.

And we are allowed to look at the readouts any time we wish to do.
"Demand" LCD included.

The OTHER good news is those who build VFD's and DC drives DO have such goods in their labs for sorting out what to tell the regulators, certification agencies, and oh, yazz.. Big Corp... and Government agencies (the ones with Big TEETH if you screw them with a lie..) who buy the goods directly or indirectly, too..

So the finer-granularity figures in the manuals will be even more useful.
And known before you buy.

Irony?

The published numbers on industrial electrical goods are more detailed, accurate, 'free of secrets'.. hence trustworthy ... than the ingredients on FOODSTUFFS!

And that actually IS a problem...

:(
 








 
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