Planer question

[animal12]

So I've been looking at all these pic's of real cool planers & got to wondering . Were the planers made as a result of the early steel's not being as refined in size/dimensions as the steel's we have today ? I'm kinda guessing on that due to the face that you don't really see planers in many shops today , or at least teh shops I have been in .
thanks
animal

 

[enginebill]

They were designed to make large planer surfaces with a single point tool. They were also designed long before cheap steel was invented so they primarily planed iron castings. They were slower than milling which is why they are not used any more although there are some planer mills that are in use.

 

[Jim Christie]

Asquith covered some of the early U.K. planer development in these older threads,
Starting about post #23 here,

Very old lathe

Asquith, Thanks for sharing this. It's easy to overestimate how far we've come in 200 years. We have had a lot of advances, but we're still sticking bits of metal in machines and turning them round and round to make things. It's humbling to see that despite all of our advances, some basic...

www.practicalmachinist.com

and Post #26 here.

Advanced c.1820s Machine Tools in Close-up

I have seen marks like the planer marks in the photo above on flywheels machined on a vertical boring mill and I assume they come from the gear drive. The cone pulleys look newer than the lathe. They look almost too thin for the foundry practice at the time. Leather was often riveted to a pulley...

www.practicalmachinist.com

Some of the pictures may no longer open but they can still be seen .
I would imagine that some of this information may be posted on Graces Guide if you search for it.

Graces Guide

www.gracesguide.co.uk

Maybe Asquith can provide some more details if he happens to see this thread.
I seem to recall other older threads about early planers in the U.S.A. but can't seem to bring them up at the moment but some others may remember them .
Jim

 

[animal12]

Thanks , you folks keep tossing new machines at me thank you . Some googling took me to these folks

Te do some interestin things & some scary things .
thanks
animal

 

[Walter A]

When I worked for a machine tool manufacturing company (1970s) we used a hydraulic planer to add the finish surface to the top of milling machine tables.
One shop where I worked as an apprentice in the mid 1960s had several planers. The newest, a Cincinnati, was powered by an AC/DC drive. Among other things it was used to machine large gear box faces.
I've seen several recent uses of planers to machine press break die sets.
On a similar note, in the shop I recently gave to my daughter, we have a nice sized shaper. It works great for squaring up torch cut blocks. As a benefit it works away while you are busy on a nearby lathe or mill. Unlike a mill there is no need to stand there and watch it work.

 

[IrbyJones]

As enginebill said, planers are much slower than mills and they also take up a lot more room, so shops shy away from them. Plus they aren't made any more (I don't think) so there aren't replacement parts available. But to a few of us here they are so cool and we still use them! And smt posted a picture years ago of his Whitcomb planer shaving off a neat spiral "chip" that's worth showing again I think since we're talking about these fine old machines...

I have read, though, that some woodworking manufacturers still use planers to surface their tables and such because the "planer marks" that these machines leave are perfect to prevent the work from sticking to the surfaces and let it slide freely.

Irby

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

As enginebill said, planers are much slower than mills and they also take up a lot more room, so shops shy away from them. Plus they aren't made any more (I don't think) so there aren't replacement parts available. But to a few of us here they are so cool and we still use them! And smt posted a picture years ago of his Whitcomb planer shaving off a neat spiral "chip" that's worth showing again I think since we're talking about these fine old machines...

I have read, though, that some woodworking manufacturers still use planers to surface their tables and such because the "planer marks" that these machines leave are perfect to prevent the work from sticking to the surfaces and let it slide freely.

Irby

Talking about the chips that come off planing machines I remember one job were we were cleaning up a steel face with a dip in the middle. The chips were coming off in an almost perfect heart shape about 3” in diameter. Being a romantic I took one home for my wife ! She was less than impressed. I still have it somewhere.

Regards Tyrone

 

[animal12]

When I worked for a machine tool manufacturing company (1970s) we used a hydraulic planer to add the finish surface to the top of milling machine tables.
One shop where I worked as an apprentice in the mid 1960s had several planers. The newest, a Cincinnati, was powered by an AC/DC drive. Among other things it was used to machine large gear box faces.
I've seen several recent uses of planers to machine press break die sets.
On a similar note, in the shop I recently gave to my daughter, we have a nice sized shaper. It works great for squaring up torch cut blocks. As a benefit it works away while you are busy on a nearby lathe or mill. Unlike a mill there is no need to stand there and watch it work.

Walter , can ya explain some about the AC?DC drive on those planers ?
thanks animal

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

On the ones I worked on the AC was used to generate DC power for the table drive. That’s so it could be infinitely variable within certain limits. I’m not an electrician, I left the more technical aspects to the guys who were machine tool electricians.

Regards Tyrone

 

[Clive603]

animal12

AC/DC drives on machine tools were generally of the Ward Leonard type. A Google search will unearth plenty of descriptions of varying technical level. Shouldn't be hard to find one with the right level of detail for you.

Basic idea is that an AC motor drives a DC generator that powers a DC motor. In principle increasing the voltage applied to the DC motor armature from zero allows the motor speed to rise from stationary to its rated speed at constant torque. Above that rated speed further increases in armature voltage runs the motor at constant horsepower as speed increases. Eventually inherent system inefficiencies prevent the motor going any faster but the practical top speed is always much less. Attempting to run the DC motor up to its theoretical maximum speed would probably destroy it.

Once electronic control gear became practical Ward Leonard drives became rather more sophisticated with considerable gains in efficiency. The basic system in very inefficient wasting half or more of the input power.

Back in the days before high power electronics DC motor design was a sophisticated art to produce motors carefully matched to speed range and duty to get best efficiency.

Clive

 

[Phil in Montana]

They were designed to make large planer surfaces with a single point tool. They were also designed long before cheap steel was invented so they primarily planed iron castings. They were slower than milling which is why they are not used any more although there are some planer mills that are in use.

Were not slow, right job and you can run laps around a mill for penny,s

 

[Phil in Montana]

animal12

AC/DC drives on machine tools were generally of the Ward Leonard type. A Google search will unearth plenty of descriptions of varying technical level. Shouldn't be hard to find one with the right level of detail for you.

Basic idea is that an AC motor drives a DC generator that powers a DC motor. In principle increasing the voltage applied to the DC motor armature from zero allows the motor speed to rise from stationary to its rated speed at constant torque. Above that rated speed further increases in armature voltage runs the motor at constant horsepower as speed increases. Eventually inherent system inefficiencies prevent the motor going any faster but the practical top speed is always much less. Attempting to run the DC motor up to its theoretical maximum speed would probably destroy it.

Once electronic control gear became practical Ward Leonard drives became rather more sophisticated with considerable gains in efficiency. The basic system in very inefficient wasting half or more of the input power.

Back in the days before high power electronics DC motor design was a sophisticated art to produce motors carefully matched to speed range and duty to get best efficiency.

Clive

dc motors were used for one major reason...instant rev at full speed, and 2nd speed regulation, (constant speed from no load to full load) still is used for this reason

 

[M.B. Naegle]

Another reason plainers were used even after mills were becoming the standard is that while slower, the cost of obtaining and maintaining a single point cutter was cheap, as opposed to all the teeth on a face or slab cutter (remember that spindles were slow, so things like single tooth fly cutters didn't really have a place and you needed more teeth going around).

I think the big reason they are still around though (other than our bleeding hearts for old iron) is that they're a relatively simple machine compared to a mill of the same size, and a big worn out mill is harder to make cut straight and true than a big worn out plainer. The slow, non-stress inducing cutting is easier to fitness for exact jobs then when you're dealing with bad spindle bearings, sloppy ways, and ground up gear boxes on an old mill.

As technology improved and better machines were available, it just became easier to lump plaining jobs under the same milling machine umbrella, but the cost of a bed mill with a 10+ foot travel and a way to tilt the head is ridiculous unless its making money for you all day long. When the speed isn't an issue and you have occasional flat jobs and enough floor space, a plainer still makes sense IMO.

 

[EmGo]

When the speed isn't an issue and you have occasional flat jobs and enough floor space, a plainer still makes sense IMO.

American Tool kept one planer for doing the flats where the ways were attached until the very end. They felt it gave a flatter straighter surface.

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

By their very nature planers are very forgiving of geometrical inaccuracies regarding alignment. Even an old planer can normally produce decent results if you know what you’re doing regarding set ups, tool selection, speeds and feeds etc. Only a planer is capable of the beautiful pinstripe finishes on table tops etc. On another point - the initial scraping of cast iron is much easier if it’s been planed rather than milled or ground.

Regards Tyrone

 

[Clive603]

dc motors were used for one major reason...instant rev at full speed, and 2nd speed regulation, (constant speed from no load to full load) still is used for this reason

Very true but thats a slightly modern perspective. Back in the day a DC motor was the only practical way to get a variable speed electric drive so engineers just had to figure out how to make best use of it.

In many ways DC motor behaviour and power characteristics are pretty similar to those of a reciprocating steam engine. Which must have been a great help in earlier applications engineering as there was a good deal of somewhat applicable experience to draw on.

Clive

 

[EmGo]

In many ways DC motor behaviour and power characteristics are pretty similar to those of a reciprocating steam engine.

Something surprising that I learned just recently. Steam locomotives were more efficient (tons pulled per tons burned kinda thing) at higher speeds. So the european practice of shorter, faster trains running more often would have been more efficient $$$ than the honkin' big beasts we had pulling the longest trains they could hook together.

Kind of weird because they went to great extents to improve loco efficiency but never exerted the brainpower to look at the whole system.

Wouldn't have been as much fun tho

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Very true but thats a slightly modern perspective. Back in the day a DC motor was the only practical way to get a variable speed electric drive so engineers just had to figure out how to make best use of it.

In many ways DC motor behaviour and power characteristics are pretty similar to those of a reciprocating steam engine. Which must have been a great help in earlier applications engineering as there was a good deal of somewhat applicable experience to draw on.

Clive

I think the variability of the old DC drives trumped everything else. Being able to quickly increase the table return stroke speed then drop back to the cutting speed again was essential to economical use of planing machines.

Watching a big table go at 200 ft a minute was a sight to behold. Nearly as impressive as when the reversing switch failed and the table exited stage left through the nearby wall leaving a nice table shaped hole in the wall.

Regards Tyrone

 

[Ben]

The nice thing about planers and shapers is you can use single point tooling ground on a bench grinder, no need for expensive custom tooling. For a small shop, repair shop, hobby shop is it's cheap to run for one off stuff you will never do again. I have both and wouldn't give them up. Great machines once you learn to run them.
Ben

 

[michiganbuck]

I think Carbide tooling made milling able to out pace planers for speed., same with shapers.

Now a days one could put a mill head , or a grinder head on a planer machine an have a kick-but macine for long/big parts..