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Please help identify Monarch lathe found in pieces

guythatbrews

Cast Iron
Joined
Dec 14, 2017
Location
MO, USA
So I stumbled onto the lathe in pieces. Looks to be about 16" swing. Bed is 104" long end to end. Can one of you Monarch mavens identify it? Don't think it has the cast Monarch ident tag anywhere. 20220422_145424.jpg20220422_145551.jpg20220422_161320.jpg20220422_161249.jpg20220422_161451.jpg Here is the back story. The poor guy who started the rebuild got a cancer diagnosis after he started tear down. He died about year and a half ago. So the bed has been outside for somewhat longer than that. I knew him by reputation. By all accounts a very good, methodical machinist/toolmaker/craftsman. He was no dummy so I expect he would not have chosen this lathe if it was not worthy of rebuild. I understand he was gonna sell it when he was done. The ways were covered with some cosmoline like material so have not bore the whole brunt of years outdoors, and for a while it was covered by blue tarps, until they rotted. No pitting on the ways and if there is scoring I have yet to detect it. No discernable wear land on the ways. Only the motor remains in the base. All other parts are stored inside. I met his brother-in-law who is disposing of the house and contents. This lathe is a white elephant for him of course. Haul off will cost more than scrap yield. It is mine for the taking. I don't want a white elephant so more checking is needed, but my interest is piqued. I have been round the block so I hope I don't have too many delusions about the scope of the project. It is a lot. I'm guessing at least 16" swing and quite possibly larger. 6' between centers? The top spindle speed looks like an opossumish 497 rpm. Can that be right? If rebuilt this lathe will never see heavy usage. Seems likely the spindle bearings can be oversped for light, occasional, small diameter usage. 1000 rpm would be nice. For larger heavy duty work the rpm will be low anyway. What do you think about overspeeding or what experience have you had? The tailstock quill in very good shape don't know the taper yet. Offhand I'd say MT5. There is a taper attachment. There is a maybe 15" 6 jaw chuck that is new unused. Of course the guy isn't giving me that. What brand I don't know it is way in the back of a cabinet and heavy. Aloris CXA and lots of holders he'll let go cheap. Anyway he needs it out pretty quick. If somebody can identify it maybe that can help me make up my mind. Thanks! Greg
 
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johnoder

Diamond
Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Location
Houston, TX USA
Tag most lower right looks like a "Model Tag". If that is what it is, it will give serial, model and swing and centers. All were at least 2.5" actual swing over "catalog" swing - like my CW16 was 18 1/2 actual. 487 is the typical top end late thirties / early forties

My CW16 was 102" centers and was 14 feet long
 

texasgeartrain

Titanium
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Location
Houston, TX
John Oder has it. That tag on headstock at the lower right corner. It should have serial number, swing, and date of manufacture on it.

My only hesitation on that is, most of those tags are placed higher, above where it is. Usually the lower tag was a secondary tag, when, in such cases they used two tags. In those cases the upper tag had the important info. But it doesn't appear an upper tag is missing.

111.jpg

It would make a great machine rescue story too, btw. You should take it. :D
 

Rob F.

Diamond
Joined
Aug 5, 2012
Location
California, Central Coast
I'm guessing at least 16" swing and quite possibly larger. 6' between centers? The top spindle speed looks like an opossumish 497 rpm. Can that be right? If rebuilt this lathe will never see heavy usage. Seems likely the spindle bearings can be oversped for light, occasional, small diameter usage. 1000 rpm would be nice. For larger heavy duty work the rpm will be low anyway. What do you think about overspeeding or what experience have you had?

My 16CW has a factory top speed of 1200 RPM. IIRC the only difference in the various speed machines was the motor drive pulley and the speed tag. It is a little noisy at highest speeds with all those gears.
 

guythatbrews

Cast Iron
Joined
Dec 14, 2017
Location
MO, USA
No ID tags to be found

I went over and spent an hour cleaning out around the lathe this morning. I had assumed it had been outside a couple of years. Boy was I wrong. The piles of leaves around it had rotted which didn't surprise me, but the manifold tree roots in the leaf litter did. I guess I never asked the guy how long it had been sitting outside. Called him and he said about 15 years! There is a pickup next to the bed that is covered with heavy lichen so it must have been there for 20. The house next door is a nice little very well kept place. Bet they will be glad to see this go. The house is run down about as far as it can go but sold for an amazing amount for the KC area. Skinny is the buyer will invest 150K to flip. Seems scary to me, but I'll bet the lathe seems scary to him.

Amazing ways on this machine. No damage to speak of. The old boy must have used primo preservative on the ways when he tarped it. A few very light scores on the inside of carraige vee up by chuck. If it was much used it was well cared for.

No luck finding a Monarch model number plate. No serial number in the usual location between flat and vee at tailstock end or anywhere else I can find. I hoped you guys were right about the tag. I thought it was the ubiquitous "flame hardened" and alas, it was.

20220425_075930.jpg

This tag is below the headstock on the machine base. It is an English Brothers Machine, Kansas CIty, MO. tag. KC EB was opened in 1907, dissolved 1986. Machine is located within 15 miles of EB location so maybe this machine has never left the area. It is stamped with I believe 349101. I didn't want to scrape on/deface it. Could be serial number but I'm thinking maybe order number? September of 34? Maybe you guys recognize it as a serial number?

20220425_075558.jpg

This tag is on the guard around the drive belts. It's the clutch maker and lubrication instructions. Very hard to read. Not sure what the color they overpainted this thing with looked like new. It looks like rancid Pepto Bismol now. Not pretty. The original paint is gray.

20220425_075923.jpg

Two 3/8-16 tapped holes maybe could have held a tag but doubtful.

20220425_080638.jpg

Headstock end showing broken casting. The headstock base is bolted to a nicely done 1" plate. Don't think this will hurt the machine at all. The front of the base has a small crack as well.

The worst part of this mess is the chip pan. Some pretty good corrosion there, but I don't think it is rusted through.
 

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guythatbrews

Cast Iron
Joined
Dec 14, 2017
Location
MO, USA
A few more pics

20220425_080032.jpg20220425_075953.jpg20220425_075918.jpg

Haven't decided whether I want to get this thing or let it go for scrap. Local rigger cheaper than Belger (and better) quoted $850 to load and haul 15 miles. I've more time than money, sweat equity, etc. and a tilt trailer rents for $110 for the weekend. On machinery skates the thing will load right up, knock wood.

I have been assured all the parts are buried somewhere in the walk out basement. The whole house could go on that show about hoarders, or maybe the one about pickers.

Since I'm almost all set up to scrape this would be a good project to start with. Maybe too good!

I guess worst case if I find out something vital is missing I can rent the trailer again and haul another 15 miles to the scrap yard. I've made inquiries about that but no answers yet.

Maybe with this extra bit of info somebody can identify this lathe.
 

Cal Haines

Diamond
Joined
Sep 19, 2002
Location
Tucson, AZ
...

No luck finding a Monarch model number plate. No serial number in the usual location between flat and vee at tailstock end or anywhere else I can find. ...

This tag is below the headstock on the machine base. It is an English Brothers Machine, Kansas CIty, MO. tag. KC EB was opened in 1907, dissolved 1986. Machine is located within 15 miles of EB location so maybe this machine has never left the area. It is stamped with I believe 349101. I didn't want to scrape on/deface it. Could be serial number but I'm thinking maybe order number? September of 34? Maybe you guys recognize it as a serial number?

View attachment 347865

...
349101 is too big to be a Monarch serial number. See here: General Information - S/N registry, history, patents, tooling, etc.

You could Terrie at Monarch and see if they have any way to look up customers. If English Brothers was a customer, maybe they have a list of machines sold to them?

Cal
 

gustafson

Diamond
Joined
Sep 4, 2002
Location
People's Republic
John Oder has it. That tag on headstock at the lower right corner. It should have serial number, swing, and date of manufacture on it.

My only hesitation on that is, most of those tags are placed higher, above where it is. Usually the lower tag was a secondary tag, when, in such cases they used two tags. In those cases the upper tag had the important info. But it doesn't appear an upper tag is missing.

View attachment 347811

It would make a great machine rescue story too, btw. You should take it. :D

A close up pic of this should tell us everything
 

guythatbrews

Cast Iron
Joined
Dec 14, 2017
Location
MO, USA
Sensory overload?

Just make sure you don't get back overload

Or truck overload

Hah! Well at least I no longer harbor illusions of strength. And in my mind this will be an easy, straightforward job.

My buddy's 3/4 ton truck will handle towing. My 1/2 ton is marginal at best.
 

marka12161

Hot Rolled
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
Location
Oswego, NY USA
I've got a 16CY in pieces also. In my case i bought a complete machine and took the major components off, had the bed ground, the carriage milled in preparation for turcite and the cross slide dovetails on the carriage ground as well. So far i've torn down the apron and replaced all the bearings and verified oil lines clear. I've got some other stuff going on right now but my next project will be a tear down and rebuild of the QCGB followed by the headstock. Once these have been rebuilt, i'll tackle the scraping. If you have any Qs as you follow me down the rabbit hole, don't hesitate to reach out.
 

guythatbrews

Cast Iron
Joined
Dec 14, 2017
Location
MO, USA
I've got a 16CY in pieces also. In my case i bought a complete machine and took the major components off, had the bed ground, the carriage milled in preparation for turcite and the cross slide dovetails on the carriage ground as well. So far i've torn down the apron and replaced all the bearings and verified oil lines clear. I've got some other stuff going on right now but my next project will be a tear down and rebuild of the QCGB followed by the headstock. Once these have been rebuilt, i'll tackle the scraping. If you have any Qs as you follow me down the rabbit hole, don't hesitate to reach out.

Sounds like you are making headway. Might play Q&A later. Thanks.

Luckily the guy hadn't torn down the headstock and gearbox. A bunch of new bearings about. They may be for this machine.

Haven't seen a manual anywhere yet. And he pulled the spindle out and I haven't seen that. A bit concerned but it's prolly somewhere in there. Think I might need it.
 

texasgeartrain

Titanium
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Location
Houston, TX
Well way scraping is not in my plan. The ways are almost pristine. Hopefully not terribly warped.

You might not think it, because they are so heavy, but lathe beds will flex and twist to a certain degree fairly easy. This is one reason for leveling a lathe. Some twist will come out on initial leveling, but it takes a few weeks to settle in. After moving a lathe, you do the initial leveling, then re-level a couple/few weeks later. I wouldn't worry about being warped.

In pic 4 of your first post is a pic of a qcgb. In the bottom of the same pic we can see part of a taper attachment. Assuming its for this lathe, it adds some value there. . . just in case you were sitting on the fence still. This could be a really nice project for you in scraping carriage, cross slide, TS etc. And a nice project machine.

I see the tail stock is apart, and quill is out. Is that what you mean by spindle is out, or is the spindle out of head stock ?
 

guythatbrews

Cast Iron
Joined
Dec 14, 2017
Location
MO, USA
Yeah there is a taper attachment. The tailstock quill is out AND so is the headstock spindle. Found the quill but the spindle is still hiding. Parts are ratholed all about. Stacked and covered here and there, and hidden by more recent acquisitions.

The guy in charge is not going to let others in until we are sure as can be all parts are located. That's somewhat reassuring.

As far as the bedway goes, right now I have the idea it is what it is. Closer inspection may prove differently, but initial outward appearance is very encouraging.
 

marka12161

Hot Rolled
Joined
Dec 23, 2016
Location
Oswego, NY USA
The tailstock quill is out AND so is the headstock spindle.

Removing the headstock spindle is non-trivial and requires a bit of headstock disassembly. The big, ultra precise main spindle bearing will also come out when the spindle is removed. Personally, i would be more concerned about the corrosion in this bearing if it's not living in the headstock than i would be about the condition of the ways. Replacing this bearing could cost more than a bed regrind if you could even find a spare. From a practical perspective it might be better to consider this machine a parts machine and look for a complete, fully assembled but worn machine as your primary rebuild project.
 








 
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