Problems with NEWALL DP900 DRO - If you have one read this!

[Porschefix]

This is a tale of my experience with my NEWALL DP900 DRO. I did a lot of research 4 years ago to find the right DRO for my manual mill. Two features I really wanted were-

Arc contouring- Input x-y center coordinates, tool diameter, radius and step size, inside or outside and with an endmill a person can (rough) cut a full or partial arc.

Arc or circle center locator- using a probe to touch off on three points of any arc or circle (x-y), even just a small portion of an arc, locate the center of that arc or circle and the radius. The part can be concave or convex, in other words you can touch off either inside or outside of an arc.

I use these features together to link(Blend) radii together and for many other purposes. The problem arose shortly after I installed and started using my new DP 900 DRO. While the arc contouring function worked perfectly for most of my needs I discovered that using it for radii and contours under .200” there was a problem. After inputting specific parameters I noticed that the display would not properly render a small radius, which means you can't use it for small arcs. Being really busy at the time I put it off for later discovery. A couple of months ago I made it a priority to research the problem and came to the conclusion that there was a problem with the software. I called Newall and they verified that there IS a problem with the software. I still have one year left on my warrantee however since Newall for whatever reason does not have a relationship with the partner who helped to develop this product anymore they are unable to repair the software for the DP 900. They generously offered to warrantee replace the DP 900 with their newest DP 1200. I thought that was appropriate and started to research the specs on the DP 1200. The problem I immediately ran into is that the DP 1200 does not have the arc, circle center locator function although it does have the arc contouring. They said that they did not include this feature because not very many people used it. Whatever.

I thought of going ahead and warrantee replacing my DP900 with the new DP 1200 head and selling it on eBay, then buying an Acurite Head but my spherosyn and microsyn encoders are not compatible with anything but the Newall DRO’s. Replacing the entire system with an Acurite or Heidenhain DRO system (both have these features) would cost a lot.

This leaves me up a creek without a paddle. There is no solution for this problem and I feel like Newall has let me down. Other than this problem I am satisfied with the DP 900. Going with the new DP 1200 would not be a resolution to the problems I’m having so I’ve decided (barring a better solution) to simply keep the DP 900 and live with its limitations.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Ron

 

[matt_isserstedt]

This doesn't address your customer dissatisfaction issues but can you just use CAD and/or a spreadsheet to get your x,y coordinates for a small radius?

It's tough to blend a small radius via straight line segments anyway, you need super small moves which are tough to control, especially when you have backlash that's several times larger than the smallest incremental moves that you need to make.

Only you can really answer this question, it seems like you know the costs of changing over, it just depends if you need those features enough to justify it. It's bad Newall didn't give you a full set of limitations on their product but I don't know what else to recommend other than a class action lawsuit, and you could probably buy a new DRO cheaper than initiating that.

 

[Porschefix]

This doesn't address your customer dissatisfaction issues but can you just use CAD and/or a spreadsheet to get your x,y coordinates for a small radius?

It's tough to blend a small radius via straight line segments anyway, you need super small moves which are tough to control, especially when you have backlash that's several times larger than the smallest incremental moves that you need to make.

Only you can really answer this question, it seems like you know the costs of changing over, it just depends if you need those features enough to justify it. It's bad Newall didn't give you a full set of limitations on their product but I don't know what else to recommend other than a class action lawsuit, and you could probably buy a new DRO cheaper than initiating that.

Matt,
I understand, yes I do use a CAD system for some of these purposes but not all of my work is laid out in CAD. Since my product is one of a kind art, as it were, a lot of it is simple layout.
The arc center finder is fast and convenient and it really fits my particular purpose. I don't want to live without it, I remember thinking when I got it that it was the bee's knees!

Those rough radii and small error matching problems I can usually work out with a stone. To have a class action, you need a "class", just me ain't a class and your right, I couldn't afford to sue. Its pretty low on my list of worries, I can live with it, its just the situation that irks me.

As far as Newall stating limitations, They first told me I was wrong, that I was doing something wrong and then after running some of their own tests they got back to me and said that I was right its a software problem, and I was the first person to complain about it, imagine that.

 

[Forrest Addy]

There is/was a Newall DP900 factory replacement program:

Newall offered to replace any DP 900 in service because they were so troublesome. Send in your DP 900 head under an RMA number and the factory will replace it with a new DP 1200.

I don't know if this factory/ecall replacement is still in effect. Check with a Newall dealer.

Repeat: this is free but you have to call a dealer and set it up so they can send you an RMA number, shipping label or something.

My new DP 1200 works great and has a few wrinkles not found on the DP900.

Better jump on it.

 

[JHOLLAND1]

another option---

Newall has a linear tube reader head series called ---SHG

this series uses the almost universal TTL signal recognised
by most dro display units

you keep tubes and mountings
replace spherosyn heads with shg units
and use whatever dro display you wish

this worked well for me

 

[dazz]

Hello

If you are technically inclined you could combine the Newall SHG encoders with LinuxCNC. Then you can make it do anything you want.

 

[Forrest Addy]

I went out to look at the issue you raised and may have found a way to link arcs on my DP 1200.

Have you explored using the bolt hole circle function to link arcs so their blends are fair? I used double the cutter diameter so the cuttter path was the same as the bolt pitch and used enough hole overlap so the bolt pitch increments amounted to a reasonably faired tool path of little line segments. I played with this a little but probably not enough to expose lurking bugs.

Would this approach be your solution?

My method for working out artistic curves and odd cam profiles on the mill made use of my bonehead CAD to overlay a line drawing on an image of the prototye shape. From that I could acale the line drawing to the desired part size then lay on arcs and radii, find their points of tangency, cartesian angles of intersection, and from that a plot of arc centers. From that I could divide the arcs in acceptable segments and from the points of intersection a list of rectangular coordinates I could follow on the DRO. Sounds like a PITA but it goes pretty quick after a little practice.

More modern CAD systems have many shortcuts to defining a faired curve - even print you a list of coordinates interpolated to whatever cusp height suits your requirements and that you could employ on a manual mill using the DRO for tool positioning. That is, do in hours what a VMC could do in minutes.

You work with what you have or are comfortable with. At least I do.

 

[Porschefix]

another option---

Newall has a linear tube reader head series called ---SHG

this series uses the almost universal TTL signal recognised
by most dro display units

you keep tubes and mountings
replace spherosyn heads with shg units
and use whatever dro display you wish

this worked well for me

I'm pretty sure the price Newall gave me for replacing my encoders INCLUDED the heads AND the tubes because I almost had a stroke when they gave me the quote. I did not know I could replace ONLY the heads. I'm going to look into it, thanks. That expands my options.

 

[Porschefix]

Hello

If you are technically inclined you could combine the Newall SHG encoders with LinuxCNC. Then you can make it do anything you want.

Well, Jeeze I could probably pull that out of my ass and fake it but is it worth that much effort, for me. Searching inside I find the answer is no, I just don't have the energy to start a new project when I already have a full plate as it is. Your idea is a good one, I think it sounds like a cool solution and I am intrigued but this would be a last resort.
Thanks for the innovative thoughts
Ron

 

[Porschefix]

I went out to look at the issue you raised and may have found a way to link arcs on my DP 1200.

Have you explored using the bolt hole circle function to link arcs so their blends are fair? I used double the cutter diameter so the cuttter path was the same as the bolt pitch and used enough hole overlap so the bolt pitch increments amounted to a reasonably faired tool path of little line segments. I played with this a little but probably not enough to expose lurking bugs.

Would this approach be your solution?

My method for working out artistic curves and odd cam profiles on the mill made use of my bonehead CAD to overlay a line drawing on an image of the prototye shape. From that I could acale the line drawing to the desired part size then lay on arcs and radii, find their points of tangency, cartesian angles of intersection, and from that a plot of arc centers. From that I could divide the arcs in acceptable segments and from the points of intersection a list of rectangular coordinates I could follow on the DRO. Sounds like a PITA but it goes pretty quick after a little practice.

More modern CAD systems have many shortcuts to defining a faired curve - even print you a list of coordinates interpolated to whatever cusp height suits your requirements and that you could employ on a manual mill using the DRO for tool positioning. That is, do in hours what a VMC could do in minutes.

You work with what you have or are comfortable with. At least I do.

Forrest,
I see where you're going with this, I thought of the bolt circle idea too so I'm already on the same page. The problem is that blending curves is not the only use that I have for the functions. This still leaves me hanging for re-indexing an arc for a second operation if I do not have the arc-circle probe 3 point touchoff function. The question is of the speed and simplicity of a known dependable procedure when there are already so many other considerations for what comes next rolling around in my head. All of my work is one off stuff and every step is, if not new territory, a variance on a previous procedure that may not have the same outcome as before.
In other words, having both of these features makes my life easier so that I have more of my brain available for other data. My internal computer is a small one track thing (just ask my wife), and I need to be careful of overloading it. Thank you for the time and thought you put into your reply, I will think about how I can use your ideas.
I would still like to hear about those new wrinkles in the DP1200 you mentioned
Thanks again, Ron

 

[Dupa3872]

Hi Ron
I am intrigued by this thread and wondering what you are doing. It sounds to me like you are using a pretty advanced DRO on your product. Would a small Vertical CNC mill work for you ? It sounds like you are doing a lot of things with the DRO that could easily be done with a CNC. You had mentioned one of a kind art and using CAD in a limited fashion. It just left me thinking you would get great results with a basic CAD package and even something like a 3 axis Proto Trak Mill. I have a P/T 3 axis mill we use for making fixtures and even do some short run secondaries with it. I program almost all of this work in Master Cam and load it up to the machine. The machines own control is very powerful and I sometimes just program right at the machine. Is this an option for you ? Keep in mind I have no idea what you are making but I could imagine you doing well with a small CNC set up. It may be a good thing to consider before spending more on what sounds like an advanced manual process.

Good luck Ron

 

[Porschefix]

Hi Ron
I am intrigued by this thread and wondering what you are doing. It sounds to me like you are using a pretty advanced DRO on your product. Would a small Vertical CNC mill work for you ? It sounds like you are doing a lot of things with the DRO that could easily be done with a CNC. You had mentioned one of a kind art and using CAD in a limited fashion. It just left me thinking you would get great results with a basic CAD package and even something like a 3 axis Proto Trak Mill. I have a P/T 3 axis mill we use for making fixtures and even do some short run secondaries with it. I program almost all of this work in Master Cam and load it up to the machine. The machines own control is very powerful and I sometimes just program right at the machine. Is this an option for you ? Keep in mind I have no idea what you are making but I could imagine you doing well with a small CNC set up. It may be a good thing to consider before spending more on what sounds like an advanced manual process.

Good luck Ron

Yes, I would love to have CNC capabilities for my product. I love the CNC technology and I am personally not averse to it. Here is my pickle, I make high end collectible knives, one at a time, by myself, by hand and without automation. Collectors of my knives place a high value on these knives being handmade by a machinist. If you want an idea of the product I am talking about please check out my website * * * * * * * * *Ron Appleton Knives - Home Page
If I start using a CNC I lose my claim to making the knife by hand. Knife makers have a constant running argument regarding the definition of "made by hand". Some say a hammer and a file , some say power tools are ok, some not. I believe that made in a machine shop with manual machines is my definition. I do cheat a bit by doing some visual layout with CAD but have not made the jump to any CNC or CAD/CAM machinery. Most all of my ideas for shape and mechanism comes from the way I feel, imagination and dreams. My look has been described as unique and recognizable.
If you see my knives you can see some of my problems.Many of my handles are one piece, 440C, Titanium, Aluminum Bronze and more. What you cannot see are the mechanisms inside, which are different than any other standard mechanisms made by anyone else in the world. I make nothing similar to the standard liner-lock, lock-back or slip-joint mechanisms common to 98%(guesstimate) of all knives. There are some makers doing interesting things with knives but still nothing like mine. At last count I have 27 different mechanisms, all strong dependable and reliable. My leg up to mechanisms comes from growing up as the son/slave of an ultra precision tool and die maker, Ray Appleton, who taught me one thing, that my ability is limited only by my imagination. Having the machining ability and knowledge in the machine shop allows me to put my ideas into finished mechanisms out of reach of most other knife-makers.
Im sorry for this extended description but it goes to filling in the purpose for the original post. My wife keeps suggesting that I get a CNC and mass producing just one knife. The problems start there, the collectability would circle the drain, material costs would increase, then there is marketing, liability, packaging, finishing and on and on ad-nauseum. My biggest sacrifice would be my creativity, I just cannot see being happy creating a mass produced product. SO there it is. Thanks for your input, I welcome any thoughts.
Ron Appleton

 

[drewboyer]

The C-80 was the best newall readout I ever used. I have a dp700 now and setting up more than one tool is such a pain in the ass.

 

[drewboyer]

Yes, I would love to have CNC capabilities for my product. I love the CNC technology and I am personally not averse to it. Here is my pickle, I make high end collectible knives, one at a time, by myself, by hand and without automation. Collectors of my knives place a high value on these knives being handmade by a machinist. If you want an idea of the product I am talking about please check out my website * * * * * * * * *Ron Appleton Knives - Home Page
If I start using a CNC I lose my claim to making the knife by hand. Knife makers have a constant running argument regarding the definition of "made by hand". Some say a hammer and a file , some say power tools are ok, some not. I believe that made in a machine shop with manual machines is my definition. I do cheat a bit by doing some visual layout with CAD but have not made the jump to any CNC or CAD/CAM machinery. Most all of my ideas for shape and mechanism comes from the way I feel, imagination and dreams. My look has been described as unique and recognizable.
If you see my knives you can see some of my problems.Many of my handles are one piece, 440C, Titanium, Aluminum Bronze and more. What you cannot see are the mechanisms inside, which are different than any other standard mechanisms made by anyone else in the world. I make nothing similar to the standard liner-lock, lock-back or slip-joint mechanisms common to 98%(guesstimate) of all knives. There are some makers doing interesting things with knives but still nothing like mine. At last count I have 27 different mechanisms, all strong dependable and reliable. My leg up to mechanisms comes from growing up as the son/slave of an ultra precision tool and die maker, Ray Appleton, who taught me one thing, that my ability is limited only by my imagination. Having the machining ability and knowledge in the machine shop allows me to put my ideas into finished mechanisms out of reach of most other knife-makers.
Im sorry for this extended description but it goes to filling in the purpose for the original post. My wife keeps suggesting that I get a CNC and mass producing just one knife. The problems start there, the collectability would circle the drain, material costs would increase, then there is marketing, liability, packaging, finishing and on and on ad-nauseum. My biggest sacrifice would be my creativity, I just cannot see being happy creating a mass produced product. SO there it is. Thanks for your input, I welcome any thoughts.
Ron Appleton

I figure if you draw the design by hand, then trace it cad and cnc the outline that's just another way of roughing the outline. I guarantee if Bob Loveless would have been familiar with cnc machines he would have used them and no one would have questioned it. Using a cnc for the outline isn't much different than using a belt grinder. I guess it would take away from the romance of hand grinding everything. It's just funny when someone could make anything else with a cnc machine people will be amazed, but when a original knife is made with a cnc roughing the outline it's "cheating" even though all the more difficult parts that come after are still done by hand.

 

[Porschefix]

I figure if you draw the design by hand, then trace it cad and cnc the outline that's just another way of roughing the outline. I guarantee if Bob Loveless would have been familiar with cnc machines he would have used them and no one would have questioned it. Using a cnc for the outline isn't much different than using a belt grinder. I guess it would take away from the romance of hand grinding everything. It's just funny when someone could make anything else with a cnc machine people will be amazed, but when a original knife is made with a cnc roughing the outline it's "cheating" even though all the more difficult parts that come after are still done by hand.

Its funny you mention Bob Loveless, He was also a member of the Art Knife Invitational® and I knew him. He was one of the old school and would have been a prime candidate for CNC technology. I agree with you regarding the handmade argument, you're preaching to the choir, but making knives at a high level is tricky business regarding reputation. It simply is what it is no matter if it makes sense or not, it is easy to cross the line and I don't care to approach it at this point. I have too much to lose. Besides, I love the setup and manual operation aspect of the machine shop. Also, In some small way I feel like I am helping to preserve the old school. You seem to have a good grasp on the world of knives, thanks for your perspective.
Ron

 

[drewboyer]

Its funny you mention Bob Loveless, He was also a member of the Art Knife Invitational® and I knew him. He was one of the old school and would have been a prime candidate for CNC technology. I agree with you regarding the handmade argument, you're preaching to the choir, but making knives at a high level is tricky business regarding reputation. It simply is what it is no matter if it makes sense or not, it is easy to cross the line and I don't care to approach it at this point. I have too much to lose. Besides, I love the setup and manual operation aspect of the machine shop. Also, In some small way I feel like I am helping to preserve the old school. You seem to have a good grasp on the world of knives, thanks for your perspective.
Ron

I make knives from time to time and I'm also a huge fan of Loveless. I used to have a subscription to Blade and I've seen a lot your work. I always thought it was really nice stuff.

 

[mTeryk]

I'm certainly no expert but have been doing a lot of research into DRO's lately. You might want to take a look at the Android DRO Project. It doesn't do what you want yet, but it is open source and has been moving along at a good clip. I'm pretty excited about what it could turn in to. If you have the chance to trade in your DRO for another model and can get one with TTL interface scales, you would be able to use many different DRO's, including Android DRO, with very little work.

Teryk

 

[Dupa3872]

Ron
I visited your site. Put the knife down and back away from the line Your work took my breath away. Carry on my friend.

Good luck I wish you great success

Ron