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Project Schaublin 135

marcsO

Cast Iron
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Mar 24, 2020
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The original shaft for the Variator has now been modified with the flange end being turned down by 10mm to allow for the new split ring dog to be fitted - the resulting overall size (length and flange dimensions) remains as designed ...

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This shows the sleeve assembled on the new shaft, this was done to check fit and to plan for the next stage, some of which was discussed in the post above which considers if the sleeve needs to be locked onto the shaft in the factory suggested position given the measurements on the Variator drawing or allowed to float laterally slightly to allow for belt alignment etc. The census is it needs to be fixed in one location but still awaiting some guidance from another expert on the 135's ...

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Finally the end with the new split ring dog bolted in place to show the design of the system that will engage the sleeve to the shaft. If we machine a 10.2mm wide slot in the shaft this will effectively give a fixed solution to the system, if the slot is say 30mm wide this will give a 10mm lateral float in each direction from centre.

The whole unit will be put back in the lathe before its fitted out and the face machined flat and to remove the small scratch caused when the de-burring tool slipped! ...

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thermite

Diamond
So interesting comments and great to get this sort of feedback and questioning.
The only one of my several as "needed MAJOR fixing" is literally 90-degrees out of phase, as it is a vertical shaft situation. Even so, there may be some useful cross-fertilization in it, so "for what it's worth, even if not much..".

When the "Quartet" combo-mill was still Booth Machine property, Adam (Abom79 on PM) had posted a video showing the "rumble" as an inadequately repaired selector yoke vibrated. He hadn't chased repair or alteration before I bought it and hauled in 1,000 miles home.

The "real problem" turned out to be the OEM having selected a vertical pillow-block with sub-par thrust capability. The "ordinary" ball-bearings had seized. The heavy spring-bearing driven hub had overcome its set-screws, worked downshaft to where its thrust face and that of the pillow-bock bearing had eaten-away a good 50-thou ....or more.

Result was the belt working at a slight angle, with the uneven grip/skip the cause of the vibration.

FORTUNATELY.... the vertical pillow block wasn't designed-in to sit flat atop the support plate as they are most-commonly used.

It was HUNG underneath the plate, its four 'ears' - spot-faced on both top and bottom of their mounting-bolt holes - snugged-up flush to the underside of the support plate.

The "proper" replacement vertical pillow-block, an uncommon, but nonetheless 'stock item', has dual Timkem TAPERED roller bearings ....and was meant from the outset for applications that have to deal with significant axial thrust.

Ideal fix, save that it is TALLER than the OEM one. A LOT taller.

OTOH, since is comes up from UNDER the support plate, the fix only needed longer fasteners and four stand-off tubes to hang the longer body deeper down and place the 'working' thrust face right where it needed to be, projecting above the plate .

The similarity, yours and mine?

Accurately aligning the driving and driven "fixed" cones. Or NOT. No "flexible" positioning wanted.

Same-again the belt wear on my nominal 12" Sheldon shaper and on my Cazeneuve HBX-360.
Belt-edge deterioration due to imperfect fixed-side cone alignment.

"On the evidence" that mis-alignment was the cause of the rumble and belt-edge deterioration. Slip as well, one supposes, and seems to apply to all cases now under my roof, plus those old printing-press drives as well.

Folks used to pay more attention, have more experience with these critters - back before VFD and such reduced the commonality of Variators in general.

Research found that Reeves-class drives are surprising power-transfer efficient when clean, dry, and in good general condition.

Even MORE surprising is that they don't suffer as great a loss as one might expect even when rather BADLY neglected.

Figures published by those who measured such things properly 'back in the day" when comparing to other belt drives - NON-variable, especially - show they can lose about 30% efficiency, worst-case, even when cones are distorted from wear and the belts are frayed, ugly, glazed, or oily.

And still work. Which actually beats "legacy" deep-section vee-belt drives.... but not more modern Poly-Vee or Micro-Vee, AKA "serpentine".

Bottom line is that it can be well worth retaining a Reeves - or similar - Variator and putting it back to rights, as even "extensive" re-work is usually lesser TOTAL work than a VFD or DC drive conversion where "some form of" transfer medium still has to "be there" to replace the Variator's belt.

"Fallback", here, anyway, is that I still have all the 180 VDC Dee Cee motors and KB-Penta DC Drives I HAD put-by to replace my variab le belt drives with ..... ever I get bored and energetic in the same month... or whole calndar-quarter.

Read: "fat chance.."

AKA

"Run what you GOT"

Same syndrome as:

So many women. So little TIME.

:D
 
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marcsO

Cast Iron
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Mar 24, 2020
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So interesting response to my question to an authority on these lathes around the floating option on the Variator and shaft, here are some key take aways from the reply email to me:

... the variator is able to swim on the lengh of the complete 25mm bar, from arm frontside to arm backside
... the variator runs on the bar absolute free with axial play of surely 40mm*
... because if you change the speed you see the variator-unit walking a little bit on the bar
... sometimes you see the variator axial a little bit walking without changing the speed only in running


This is naturally the setup on the later Variator system where the shaft (25mm in this case) runs in bearings and the Variator system slides (as it looks) freely along it, this confirms that the 'swim' and 'walking' terms do indicate that allowing the Variator to laterally move does seem to be the intended outcome of the new design so I think for now my gut feeling is cut the slot to allow this to happen and position it so it stops the Variator 2mm from the inside of the yoke arms, a quick calculation shows this will allow +/- 12mm movement from the centre position.

* I believe this refers to the overall gap in mm on the revised yoke and spindle system, looking at the drawings it adds up to 39mm, the older system as in mine has 29mm overall gap.
 
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thermite

Diamond
So interesting response to my question to an authority on these lathes around the floating option on the Variator and shaft, here are some key take aways from the reply email to me:

... the variator is able to swim on the lengh of the complete 25mm bar, from arm frontside to arm backside
... the variator runs on the bar absolute free with axial play of surely 40mm*
... because if you change the speed you see the variator-unit walking a little bit on the bar
... sometimes you see the variator axial a little bit walking without changing the speed only in running


This is naturally the setup on the later Variator system where the shaft (25mm in this case) runs in bearings and the Variator system slides (as it looks) freely along it, this confirms that the 'swim' and 'walking' terms do indicate that allowing the Variator to laterally move does seem to be the intended outcome of the new design so I think for now my gut feeling is cut the slot to allow this to happen and position it so it stops the Variator 2mm from the inside of the yoke arms, a quick calculation shows this will allow +/- 12mm movement from the centre position.

* I believe this refers to the overall gap in mm on the revised yoke and spindle system, looking at the drawings it adds up to 39mm, the older system as in mine has 29mm overall gap.

AFAIK, there are (at least) four variations on the general theme in resilient belting alone.. so "no argument", whatever works, works ...but...

... my largest one being vertically arranged has far too much MASS to allow it to attempt to "float" on the poor belt's guidance, so no such option engineered in. The Cazeneuve is also fixed position.... at least at the driven end.

The PIV-Werner Reimers drive in the Alzmetall is a whole 'nuther kettle of fish, BTW, as is my Graham "ring drive" playtoy.

For a REAL puzzle, though see one General Motors paid serious money (for the era..) to "bury" really deep:

 

marcsO

Cast Iron
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So the 40mm long slot has now been machined on the main shaft to engage with the split ring dog that bolts to the main Variator assembly, only seen the pictures myself not the item in the flesh but overall the outcome seems good and hoping the resulting system works as designed.

Here are a few pictures of the process ...

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marcsO

Cast Iron
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Mar 24, 2020
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Another small but key job ...
The motor mounting plate which pivots and slides for and aft for alignment and is set using a set screw was all jammed up and needed some TLC and oil to get it freed up and able to slide and pivot, not a challenging job but good to be done. When I took the mount off the motor only two bolts were fitted, I can only assume than in the process of trying to adjust the motor tension when the belts got oiled up that some wally decided it was too hard to reach the two bolts and just left them off! Yes it's hard to reach them when the motor is installed but not impossible so I decided to order new bolts and changed out the remaining two for four new ones and nuts too, both with flanges, the bolt ones serrated.

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Next little job is one I'm doing just 'because', the motor is wired to cable running in a metal flexible sleeve which runs through the cabinet and into the end electronic panel, the cables enter the motor via a metal connector box and have to be fed through a tight 90 degree bend to get them into position for connecting to the terminals, its not a big deal but a faff so I am going to experiment and have ordered a MIL spec 12 pin connector assembly and plan to hard wire one end to the connector box and hopefully the plan will be the feed end will simply be a push fit and lock the connect together. It may be a waste of money etc and time but as I'm re-terminating the wires anyway seems its an opportunistic time to embark on a pointless upgrade :) ... will post the outcome shortly.
 
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marcsO

Cast Iron
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Well that plan won't happen unless any of you out there can suggest a decent in-line connector system that has pins that are actually big enough to solder the feed wires to, the connectors I bought although rated to 7.5A each pin are just too small and close to really be practical to solder anything other than small wire to so they are going back.

Any suggestions for a decent man size in-line connector system very welcome :)

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marcsO

Cast Iron
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Mar 24, 2020
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Being scorching hot outside it seemed an opportune time to head to the 'repair shop' and do some more on the 135.
I used a block and tackle bolted to the roof joists to lift the motor from a pallet truck onto the work bench and now the motor has been completed the reverse is straightforward, I also have another fixing point above the 135's motor end of the base unit and after moving the motor from the work bench down onto the pallet truck and back over to the lathe the job to re-install the motor commenced.

I've bolted the motor pivot plate to the motor, think when I took it out I removed it before taking the motor out of the base unit, think it will go through with a bit of juggling.

I made a sled out of scrap wood with a thick piece of 12mm steel running under the OSB to support the motor weigh, braced the whole thing against the opening so hopefully the motor will slide but the sled will stay in place ...

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I got the motor about half way into the base unit and ensured it was stable and then proceeded to sort the wiring out, I re-terminated all the wires, checked them over and labelled them up making a note of the new numbers, the original wires had a number tape wrapped around each which had become super sticky and very dirty so these came off, the wires cleaned, and new ring terminations were applied on the 7 wires for the motor windings and earth link, and ferules on the 4 wires connecting to the brake and something else (not sure what that is).

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Checked all the connections and have now left it till tomorrow when have fresh eyes to ensure the wires are on the right terminals. If this is all good will close up the terminal cover and see if I can get the motor onto its mountings ...
 

marcsO

Cast Iron
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Mar 24, 2020
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Wiring double checked and the terminal box closed up.

I was pleasantly surprised that the motor slide with a fair amount of shove into the right position to be rotated so the mounting plate spindle dropped into the mounting cradles, its weird sometimes that the jobs you think are going to be hard turn out way simpler, and those easy ones are right little b-ggers!

The rear cradle cap was a little tricky to get to, guess maybe via the suds end might be easier but I have not cleaned this yet so would look like a coalminer if I went in that end. Found if the motor is lowered down on the adjuster it makes it easier and the human brain is brilliant at working out from feel alone where everything is, anyway got them nipped up nice and tight. Motor slides for and aft on the shaft and there is some play on the adjuster to allow this, once the belts are on will work out the position and nip the grub screw up on the motor mount to secure the position.

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thermite

Diamond
might be easier but I have not cleaned this yet so would look like a coalminer if I went in that end.
Well-run "deep" coal mines can be cleaner than one might be aware of. Readily spark-ignitable - even SELF-ignitable - coal dust can be deadly explosive, hence is put-down and kept down a'purpose.

Given how methodical you have been to-date?
I'm just short of "shocked" you left ANY dirt. Anywhere.

Wudda thot' a FULL cleaning to be in order at the very outset?

Works for me.

Not so much that I'm afeerd of getting grubby. But I can do WITHOUT the toxins and biologicals that can turn a minor scrape or cut into a downright nasty- and slow to heal - infection.

Besides... one can see stuff better when clean, "wrench" more safely and effectively, detect failings sooner, and FEEL better about the goods and the progress.
 
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marcsO

Cast Iron
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Bit the bullet and cleaned out the suds compartment, as good as I can get it and way better than when it arrived!

I remember when removing the tank and pump that I was unable to remove the pump by itself as there was not enough height to clear the pump pickup from the tank, got me thinking that maybe having the suds tank on runners might help sliding it out when full or needing a clean or coolant change, anyone dome something similar or am I barking mad?

Cleaner now ...

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thermite

Diamond
Bit the bullet and cleaned out the suds compartment, as good as I can get it and way better than when it arrived!

I remember when removing the tank and pump that I was unable to remove the pump by itself as there was not enough height to clear the pump pickup from the tank, got me thinking that maybe having the suds tank on runners might help sliding it out when full or needing a clean or coolant change, anyone dome something similar or am I barking mad?

Cleaner now ...

View attachment 368625
LOTS... of chip and suds bins were factory OEM on rails or rollers, so yazzz.. "what took you so long?"

:)

I consider it even saner for a(ny) infrequent-use shop to "outboard" 100% of the 'juice' rig anyway.

That way a tall-but-small "rollaround" tower-cart carries recovery, settling, filtering, freshly mixed and/or cleaned-up supply tank, ALL pumps, controls, and power.

Quick-connect to "whichever" machine-tool NEEDS juice, that tasking, if ANY, ELSE NOT.

And the juice-dollar goes further as it dasn't sit and ROT nor collect dead critters as much.
 

marcsO

Cast Iron
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Mar 24, 2020
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Interesting I was not aware that some makers included a roller or sliding suds tank, only had a Hardinge and this 135 so my experience is low, anyone got any pics of this sort of system I could use for bedtime reading?

A roll around system sounds like a nice idea, maybe when I find a sad looking Deckel FP1 or a Schaublin 13 mill I will adopt this but with only this lathe it might be a bit of an overkill.

I know there is almost no chance but if anyone does know of an FP1 or 13 is renovation condition close to the UK for sale please let me know :)
 

thermite

Diamond
Interesting I was not aware that some makers included a roller or sliding suds tank, only had a Hardinge and this 135 so my experience is low, anyone got any pics of this sort of system I could use for bedtime reading?
"Large lathe" thing, mostly. Massive chipload as is the byproduct of heavy work is what got me 'hooked'.

Picture narrow-gage railway pulling a long string of small, but HEAVY hoppers full of curly-chips - stinky-brown cutting oil coated.

"Ordnance steel"

Watertown Arsenal (adjacent Charles Town // Boston, Taxatwoshits.)

Roaring like the very hammers of hell.... cranking out "tube artillery" for the Korean War.

Your size, a tray similar to the plastic goods 'Big Box" sell for mixing small batches of mortar would be plenty.

Except you'd need metal. Hot chips and thermoplastics are not a good combination!
Dead-easy to fab, BTW. There are examples "right here, on PM"

:)
 

marcsO

Cast Iron
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Suds tank, yuk not a fun job but today it happened and after an hour or so with petrol and loads of rags and brushes the tank is clean enough to be put back into service, assuming the pump actually works!

There is a lid with an enlarged cut out for the drain hose to go through and deliver its discharge into the first tank, the lid is a drop on fit and whilst I'm sure the 135 is not a quiet lathe having what can only be described as an out of tune tin drum resting in the base of the cabinet is not going to make it any quieter.

I had some rubber edge strip which fitted nicely over the lip of the tank and allowed the lid to fit nice and snug with no resonance. While I had the edge strip I also edged the drain hose opening and also cut a new relief for the suds feed hose which when attached to the pump pushes the lid down, now it clears the lid and tidies up the lid openings.

Going to see if there are rubber feet which will fit over the three metal studs which are welded to the base of the tank, again these are not going to do anything to resonance noise when that socking great motor is whirring round!

Pics of progress today ...
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marcsO

Cast Iron
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The rubber feet which I ordered arrived today, opted to go with the cream coloured ones as these have a flat base whilst the black ones have a curved base, felt as the metal feet on the suds tank were flat the cream rubber ones should match. Had to shorten them down using a band saw so they fitted nicely, overall the height still allows the whole tank to be removed with pump in situ which was the plan.

I may be making a sweeping assumption here that the tank never had rubber feet but guess as its 50 years old that maybe it did have when new and they have just perished and been lost or discarded over time, anyone know if the 135's suds tank were fitted originally with rubber feet?

Drilled and tapped a few holes inside the cabinet to fix conduit/cable supports so that the cables were held clear from any snagging and kept away from the suds tank etc. One above the tank gathers the cables as they leave the electronics cabinet and one on the back face of the lathe cabinet where there is a support, albeit a curved piece of metal which was not really doing much. Used the threaded hole on the back of the cabinet (M8) and made up a small bracket to fix a cable tie to and clipped all the cables to it.

Fitted the coolant feed pipe and re-connected the suds pump, the connections on the cable ends have all been replaced with new soldered ring ends and marked sleeves.

Slid the tank in and ready for testing the motor and eventually filling with 'milk'.

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marcsO

Cast Iron
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OK the guy who designed the oil tank mounting system was a sadist, three bolts in a space where you can barely get a hand in let alone a position that any yoga expert would consider madness, I understand now why only one bolt was actually fitted when I got the lathe!

The tank went in and out 5 times before I was able to bend the feet into a position that allowed the holes to line up to kick of with, again you cannot see if they are aligned and have to do the whole thing by feel with copious amounts of pain and no doubt a trip to the chiropractor too ....

Anyway once I got the alignment right and managed to get all three bolts in by hand as far as they would go the time to do them up threw yet another challenge, getting an Allen key in there is impossible, I ended up grinding the short end of a key close to the bend so I could get it to locate, then on the two bolts at the back of the mount you literally had about a quarter turn available to tighten them as you had no room to work, it took me almost 45 minutes to do up 3 bolts £$%&!!!!!!

Hope it does not need to come out anytime soon but it's in now (better not leak!).

Hooked up the new tank vent pipe, using the spare port now not needed as the Variator has no oil feed return, connected up the head gear drain via the 12mm OD push fit pipe back to tank and started to plan the 10mm OD pipe route up to feed the head gear from the pump.

Painful but done, god bless Schaublin ...

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pat pounden

Aluminum
Joined
Jul 4, 2019
OK the guy who designed the oil tank mounting system was a sadist, three bolts in a space where you can barely get a hand in let alone a position that any yoga expert would consider madness, I understand now why only one bolt was actually fitted when I got the lathe!

The tank went in and out 5 times before I was able to bend the feet into a position that allowed the holes to line up to kick of with, again you cannot see if they are aligned and have to do the whole thing by feel with copious amounts of pain and no doubt a trip to the chiropractor too ....

Anyway once I got the alignment right and managed to get all three bolts in by hand as far as they would go the time to do them up threw yet another challenge, getting an Allen key in there is impossible, I ended up grinding the short end of a key close to the bend so I could get it to locate, then on the two bolts at the back of the mount you literally had about a quarter turn available to tighten them as you had no room to work, it took me almost 45 minutes to do up 3 bolts £$%&!!!!!!

Hope it does not need to come out anytime soon but it's in now (better not leak!).

Hooked up the new tank vent pipe, using the spare port now not needed as the Variator has no oil feed return, connected up the head gear drain via the 12mm OD push fit pipe back to tank and started to plan the 10mm OD pipe route up to feed the head gear from the pump.

Painful but done, god bless Schaublin ...

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put 2 studs in?
 

marcsO

Cast Iron
Joined
Mar 24, 2020
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Sorry Pat did not read your message properly, I would have to put three studs in as don't like holes without things in them especially as that was how it was made.

Certainly a stud would make the hole alignment easier but you still have to get a spanner on the nuts to do them up and access is pants to be fair. Not sure there is any other options as its tucked away and access is tight regardless.
 








 
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