Question for the owners...

[andywire]

Where do you anticipate seeing the greatest need for future machinists? The reason I ask, I have the opportunity to take my career in several directions. I have an opportunity to work for a mold shop, learning under the guidance of experienced mold makers. I also have the opportunity to work for a tool and die shop, learning that end of the business. Obviously, I can't do both...

I have worked in production machining for several years and I'm really looking for something different. I've always known I wanted to be a tool maker. It was my original intention, but when I left HS, there was nothing out there. Today, I am actually seeing apprenticeship opportunities in these occupations, and the wages seem decent enough.

I guess what I'm asking... If you are in this business, what do you anticipate the future to look like for your business and it's workers? Do you believe the hype about the impending "skilled labor shortage"? Would you even recommend these occupations to your own kids?

Any advice or guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry, I meant to post this in the shop management subforum... Really wasn't sure where to put it actually...

 

[Parkerbender]

I know that the next direction that we are going is plastic. I think that a lot of that stuff is coming back over the next 5-10 years. I'd go that route.

 

[Oldwrench]

I learned skills that I thought would help me make my products when I eventually went into business. That's not the same as the skills I try to teach my employees. If you have a thing you dream of producing, study what you need to make that happen. If your goal is to develop marketable skills, look at where the employment opportunities are going to be. "One word: Plastics" is a famous line from a movie from around 1972. It's hard to imagine that we won't be using plastics for a long time. They keep getting better and they need to be molded. Carbon fiber comes to mind. In '72 they were looking ahead to replacements for styrene. No telling what they'll have in another 40 years. Or even 20. Be advised though, that many of the constituents of modern composites are carcinogenic; it might turn out to be the equivalent of a 1940s boiler factory.

 

[Moriboy]

I think I'm probably no different than most, but my goal is to automate, automate, automate! What that means is that I will have fewer positions available, but what I will have is a smaller, highly skilled core group. These guys will have to embrace new technology, be highly motivated, and be willing and able to get the technology to work for them. One example: we replaced 3 turning centers, working 2 shifts, using 4- 6 employees with a single 8 axis swiss machine that runs 11 hours a day and is manned with one operator. We had no swiss experience at all. I had one guy that showed potential to learn the new technology, so he ended up getting the job, along with a nice raise and a brand new machine to run. So my point being is that are great opportunities for people that want to take on new challenges and rise to the top of the food chain.

 

[andywire]

I think I'm probably no different than most, but my goal is to automate, automate, automate! What that means is that I will have fewer positions available, but what I will have is a smaller, highly skilled core group. These guys will have to embrace new technology, be highly motivated, and be willing and able to get the technology to work for them. One example: we replaced 3 turning centers, working 2 shifts, using 4- 6 employees with a single 8 axis swiss machine that runs 11 hours a day and is manned with one operator. We had no swiss experience at all. I had one guy that showed potential to learn the new technology, so he ended up getting the job, along with a nice raise and a brand new machine to run. So my point being is that are great opportunities for people that want to take on new challenges and rise to the top of the food chain.

Your response highlights a serious issue with this occupation... Management and owners have been placing all their chips on automation. Very little time, money or effort has been set aside to train the next crop. The skills available are deplorable. The few guys you will have running around in tomorrow's machine shops will be an ill prepared bunch. How much productivity can you get from these types, even when multiplied by automation?

I have worked on swiss lathes. Very nice machines indeed. There is strong demand for operators who work for $10/hr and never ask for raises. Been there, done that. And the guys who run the most scrap are often made into higher paid set up operators by management, since they don't make useful operators. Time to learn some new skills... Particularly the kind that pay the bills.

All in all though, I do love swiss lathes. Nearly flawless. They can do wonderful things in the hands of a skilled and knowledgeable machinist. I would love to learn more about using them, but I also want to learn the rest of the trade and what it has to offer. In most shops I've seen, you're the swiss guy... And that's it.

I hate to say it, but if I want the joy of commanding the entire shop floor, I will probably have to start my own business some day, and this is a terribly competitive and cut throat sector to operate in.

 

[Modelman]

I know that the next direction that we are going is plastic. I think that a lot of that stuff is coming back over the next 5-10 years. I'd go that route.

I have to agree. Plastics production via injection molding has become a highly automated process, and it has few environmental issues, so it SHOULD come back on-shore. China has never been particularly cheap for molds; their forte is doing post molding assembly, and insisting they get the molding, too, then offering to build molds as part of a package deal. As China continues to become ever more expensive, more and more of this will dribble back, and there is really no incentive to have the tools built in China, only to have them re-built here so they run reliably.

The only real question, to my mind, is how long this is going to take.

Dennis

 

[andywire]

I have to agree. Plastics production via injection molding has become a highly automated process, and it has few environmental issues, so it SHOULD come back on-shore. China has never been particularly cheap for molds; their forte is doing post molding assembly, and insisting they get the molding, too, then offering to build molds as part of a package deal. As China continues to become ever more expensive, more and more of this will dribble back, and there is really no incentive to have the tools built in China, only to have them re-built here so they run reliably.

The only real question, to my mind, is how long this is going to take.

Dennis

How is it going to "dribble back" if you do not have the workforce with the right skill set? If it returns in even the slightest of volumes, will manufacturers be prepared for the uptick in demand? These types of professions take years to fully train for, and it seems that most companies do not have any talent on the back burner.

My fear is, once it's gone, it's gone for good. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[reedeprintice]

plastic wow

 

[CNC Hacker]

Your response highlights a serious issue with this occupation... Management and owners have been placing all their chips on automation. Very little time, money or effort has been set aside to train the next crop. The skills available are deplorable. The few guys you will have running around in tomorrow's machine shops will be an ill prepared bunch. How much productivity can you get from these types, even when multiplied by automation?

I have worked on swiss lathes. Very nice machines indeed. There is strong demand for operators who work for $10/hr and never ask for raises. Been there, done that. And the guys who run the most scrap are often made into higher paid set up operators by management, since they don't make useful operators. Time to learn some new skills... Particularly the kind that pay the bills.

All in all though, I do love swiss lathes. Nearly flawless. They can do wonderful things in the hands of a skilled and knowledgeable machinist. I would love to learn more about using them, but I also want to learn the rest of the trade and what it has to offer. In most shops I've seen, you're the swiss guy... And that's it.

I hate to say it, but if I want the joy of commanding the entire shop floor, I will probably have to start my own business some day, and this is a terribly competitive and cut throat sector to operate in.

I think his point is, you won't need the $10/hr guys to sit in front of a machine anymore. They already have operators who don't ask for raises - robots and unattended machining cells. You'll have a couple guys that can do everything and only do the challenging work of getting (and keeping) the machines running. Personally this is a lot more appealing to me, I think the fun part of machining is solving the initial "problem" of making the part and optimizing it. Making the next 10, 100, 1000 gets old in a hurry.

As for mold making vs. tool and die, I think you'll be fine in either as long as you're learning. The most important skill to learn for the future IMO is programming. CNC, CMM, Robots, HTML, Java, C++, etc, etc, etc. Learn as many programming languages as your brain can handle. Most people in the manufacturing industry and the general populace don't understand how to program things and it's only gonna become more important in the future. If you can control the machines you'll always be in demand.

 

[Gordon B. Clarke]

Where do you anticipate seeing the greatest need for future machinists? The reason I ask, I have the opportunity to take my career in several directions. I have an opportunity to work for a mold shop, learning under the guidance of experienced mold makers. I also have the opportunity to work for a tool and die shop, learning that end of the business. Obviously, I can't do both...

I have worked in production machining for several years and I'm really looking for something different. I've always known I wanted to be a tool maker. It was my original intention, but when I left HS, there was nothing out there. Today, I am actually seeing apprenticeship opportunities in these occupations, and the wages seem decent enough.

I guess what I'm asking... If you are in this business, what do you anticipate the future to look like for your business and it's workers? Do you believe the hype about the impending "skilled labor shortage"? Would you even recommend these occupations to your own kids?

Any advice or guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry, I meant to post this in the shop management subforum... Really wasn't sure where to put it actually...

Since you did put your post in this forum I'll give you a non American perspective

In which direcion is the type of profession you are considering changing to in the USA? Where do companies with reputations for high quality molded components have their tools made? LEGO is a good example to look into but of course there are many others.

Competeing on price is a no win battle but exceptional quality will get noticed. Good mold and die makers will be expected to give advice to the customer from the beginning of a project. Just making to customer specs is something almost anyone can do and then, more often than not, the lowest price gets the order.

You don't mention if your possible career choices are well established large companies or small specialized ones. If I were you I'd look at whether they were expanding or "shrinking" and let that be the reason for my choice. I don't know of any company coming back from the "brink" in that type of business. More and more are "sinking or swimming".

Gordon

 

[Modelman]

How is it going to "dribble back" if you do not have the workforce with the right skill set? If it returns in even the slightest of volumes, will manufacturers be prepared for the uptick in demand? These types of professions take years to fully train for, and it seems that most companies do not have any talent on the back burner.

My fear is, once it's gone, it's gone for good. I hope I'm wrong.

The "plastics industry" will come back as they solve their assembly issues. The actual production at the press has been automated for years; where in the fifties a plant had an operator standing in front of each and every press to take the parts out (actually three operators, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd shift) those days are long gone. The typical plant today has set-up people and a few people that move pallets of parts that the "pick 'n place" robots have filled.

The challenge is manufacturing the PRODUCT, rather than just the parts. The solution points to ever more complicated tooling; snap fits (old hat), foamed -in-place cores, two and more component over-molding, and in-mold decorating, all aimed at the end of replacing assembly labor with more sophisticated part design.

You're not looking to get into the molding field, but rather the MOLD MAKING field. More sophisticated parts require more complex molds, and that's good for the mold making trade.

Cheap tooling from China is OK when it is run in China, because if it doesn't run well, that's the Chinese contractor's problem. From what I read in the trade press, when companies bring that sort of tooling to the US, they end up spending beaucoup bucks in a domestic shop to get it to run reliably, or end up sourcing new tooling, and that is good for the US shops.

Dennis

 

[HiNi]

Bought my first injection molding machine when at 28 years old, set it in a 2 car garage and was molding medical parts, built the mold after hours at the molding company I was working at, with the owners permission. Would love to see plastic injection molding come back to the US, who can wait for it to flow through every other low cost country first. Let go and move on.

The fastest growing industry and we all know it will be in the 3D printing field. A young person with mechanical aptitude could get in on a good ride and challenging parts.
Good luck.

 

[Modelman]

Additive mold building technologies have been with us for the last twenty five years... can you say "Tartan Tool"? It still takes a skilled mold maker to whip the cavities into useful tooling.

 

[Big B]

I can't say about the present time but I know that 10 or 20 years ago when wages started falling in the tool and die maker and mold maker trades, the mold makers took it on the chin before the die makers did. That is in the Michigan market at least. It does seem like some work is flowing back to the states so the future may be the brightest it has been in the last decade or so.

Big B

 

[Barry Weeks]

I see mold work coming back over the past few years, and no one left here to do it. I'm 50 years old, and the youngest out of the people I work with. If a young guy wanted to take a chance on mold making, he might have a shot at naming his salary in 10 years or so when he's the only one in his plant that knows how to get something done.

 

[Modelman]

I can't say about the present time but I know that 10 or 20 years ago when wages started falling in the tool and die maker and mold maker trades, the mold makers took it on the chin before the die makers did. That is in the Michigan market at least. It does seem like some work is flowing back to the states so the future may be the brightest it has been in the last decade or so.

Big B

Can't dispute this, but we may be able to trace it to the kind of work each caters to. Generally, mold makers do plastic (and die cast, a misnomer) injection molds, while die makers build metal forming dies. I think the statement above is attributable to the auto industry propping up wages for the folks who made the metal forming dies, while the injection molded consumer products flowed offshore.

However, looking at long term trends, automakers have been trying to shed metal parts for years, in an effort to make the cars lighter, and therefore more fuel efficient. Most of that metal has been replaced by plastic parts.

In reality, much of the skillset is applicable to both trades, which is why they are generically called "tool and die" makers. Training in either trade will likely provide more opportunity than general production machining, but that's just my opinion.

Dennis

 

[andywire]

I appreciate the feedback. I can definitely see the potential for opportunity in the mold making trade. It's a shame that these high skill, knowledge intensive trades have been hammered so hard over the years. An awful lot of good, smart people invested years of their lives mastering these crafts. Not sure if anyone deserves blame in this. It's just sad that we are talking about these lines of work the way we do today.

If I do pursue the tool making trade further, I don't expect a huge payout in the end. I'd much rather do something useful and vital to the world we live in today. Sure, big bucks would be nice, but if you love the work, isn't that worth something more than what many already have?

For what it's worth, glassdoor says both tool/die and mold makers make a bit over 50K today. That's not chump change, but it isn't comparable to what they were making a decade or two in the past. It still pays the bills, and it's becoming almost a niche. Maybe that means there will be more opportunities to stay employed in the future? I believe they deserve more for the work they do, and maybe they will get it if they live long enough.

 

[Parkerbender]

I don't think there are going to be any, or at least many fewer jobs in manufacturing in the forseeable future. The trade shrunk up over the past 20 years or so and now that it is coming back, I think that between new jobs, and losing out to automation that there will stay around the same number of net jobs, but they should increase in pay beings that the picket line jumpers of the world (the Chinese) have been going up in pay, so there is no really cheap choice left. (Africa I guess? )

 

[rb07565]

I oversee the maintenance dept at a large factory. I have machinists, welders, pipe fitters, electricians, and electronic techs. I find the most valuable people are those that have the most broad knowledge base. If a person can not only make the parts for a machine but also re-engineer, improve, and install them I find him much more valuable than a person who can make them only. This forum repeatedly talks of automation and rightly so, that's where we are headed. However one thing those automated machines cannot do is replace their own parts and change their own programs. If you were to be able to do that as well as repair/build the molds that would make you nearly untouchable and able to name your salary. I don not know if this is an option for you personally or if it is something you'd even be interested in. I just believe that employers now are veering away from the "specialists". They are looking for those that can accell at more than one craft.

 

[barrelroll]

I oversee the maintenance dept at a large factory. I have machinists, welders, pipe fitters, electricians, and electronic techs. I find the most valuable people are those that have the most broad knowledge base. If a person can not only make the parts for a machine but also re-engineer, improve, and install them I find him much more valuable than a person who can make them only. This forum repeatedly talks of automation and rightly so, that's where we are headed. However one thing those automated machines cannot do is replace their own parts and change their own programs. If you were to be able to do that as well as repair/build the molds that would make you nearly untouchable and able to name your salary. I don not know if this is an option for you personally or if it is something you'd even be interested in. I just believe that employers now are veering away from the "specialists". They are looking for those that can accell at more than one craft.

I agree with this quote. I had a job offer at a mid sized mold shop and another at a shop that was mainly heavy steel CNC milling. I turned both down to work at the job shop I'm at now to get manual and CNC experience. I wanted a broad skill set, not a very field specific specialized skill set. I have no doubt that the mold industry would have been a good one to be in. I like variety and didn't want to be limited by a narrow skill set.

The shop I'm at does a fair amount of CNC milling and turning and I spend 25-50% my days running a manual engine lathe while the CNC's I'm operating are dropping parts on auto pilot. I've been here 8 months and I'm getting setup programing experience as well and a pretty broad variety of parts to run though we do have our production parts we end up running 5,000 + of some weeks. The shop started as a mold and pattern shop but now does just about everything, I just dropped some patterns off at a foundry today, there's some 6" + diameter shafts sitting on the floor for some repair work, some production turning parts are running, there's a pile of automotive parts to be turned on the manual before they go into the CNC mill with a 4th axis to get splined, and there's a pretty involved casting clean up job starting after the first of the year.

Jobs like mine are out there if you look for them. If I stay at this shop long enough I should have a really diverse skill set to keep up with where ever industry heads. I think your young, I'm 29, and I feel like getting comfortable with manual machines is something most young people don't do any more. I don't think there will be many strictly manual machinist by the time I'm retired. Having the ability to run a manual machine along with CNC operating/ setup/ programing should make you much more valuable. There will always be a need for manual machining and when used right it can improve and compliment CNC machining while at the same time the same can be said for CNC improving and complimenting manual machining. I look at the medical company a buddy works at. They have some really talented setup/ operators/ programers that either work in CNC turning or milling but almost never have lots of experience in both departments and the hand full of manual machines in a 100+ employee company almost never get turned on. This is the experience a lot of guys are getting these days, if anyone left the medical company and ended up at the little job shop I work at they would be in for a surprise with the variety of stuff that expected out an employee.