Quoting a job

[Upnorth4]

I need some help. I have always been an employee. I have put in some long hours and worked with many teams to pull off some crazy things but I have never seen the invoice. Never had to make the call on what all of it is worth.

I just recently had a call from an old boss of mine, he gave my name to a guy who runs a hot rod shop and needed a hand with some CAD.

He needs a manifold for a straight six, changing it to a three carb set up from a single carb. Essentially three manifolds on a very custom design. (My end will be just the production of the manifolds, NOT balancing them and getting it to idle.... I will work with them to ensure that the needed features are present, ie balance ports and throttle linkages....)

I have the drawing done and the first prototype 3d printed, I am fairly confident that I can investment cast it out of A356. failing that I can machine it out of 6061 in two parts and weld it together.

BUT...... I literally have NO idea what to quote this guy.

-I don't want to screw this guy over, he is related to my current boss, I mean I wouldn't want to screw anyone over. But this car isn't his, it's a job he took on then had a hard time finding a local company to do the design and machining...

-this guys shop is busy, if I get this right there will almost certainly be more work coming my way. Double edge sword there though, if I price this one too low to get the work would I be expected to be cheap on the next jobs?

-I don't want to work for free, I can work over time at my day job if I pass this up

-I am confidant I can do this, I have the tools and feel good about my skills, I enjoy this work, if it goes sideways I want it to go sideways fast, so that I have time to sort it out before the deadline in mid December. So I want to give him a number soon and order the materials.

 

[mhajicek]

Quoting is hard. Your best shot is to make an educated guess as to how long it will take you, multiply by your shop rate, add what resources you'll consume, and what outside services will cost. Then multiply by a safety margin of 1.5 to 2, because everything takes longer than you think, especially the first time. Avoid the trap of lowering your price because it "looks high". If you can't get the job at your desired price, then you probably don't want it, unless you're willing to take a hit to get things moving.

 

[Trboatworks]

I quoted the last three jobs low because the numbers seemed like too much for what I was providing.
Like the post above said- don't fall into that trap believe me.
Quote high enough to comfortably cover your labor and materials and let them decide if they want to go forward.

There is no such thing as "screwing someone over" with a quote.
You quote- they decide if that works for them.

The worse outcome is getting into a commitment where your costs are not covered- that is bad for them and you.

 

[norb]

Quoting is the hardest thing to do for me, especially one off jobs. I charge time and materials to my main customer. He always gets top quality work from me at a very fair price. It is a good bargain for both of us. You should do the same for this job that way you won't get screwed.

 

[atex57]

Are cosmetics important? Do they need a clean casting?

It looks like a prime job for a hunk of alum tube and a TIG welder if not.

Ed.

 

[Ishira]

Episode 26: Things to Consider Before Quoting a Job - Practical Machinist : Practical Machinist

I dont know if this will be useful to you, but they have a video with some info on job quoting here on the site. Could help, could not.

 

[Bobw]

So somebody has pockets that are deep enough to have a custom manifold made....

One thing I've learned with automotive stuff.. Nobody wants to brag about
how CHEAP they bought a "custom" part for.. They want to brag about HOW MUCH
they spent on that "custom" part..

Years back I dabbled in some car stuff.. Put the first one on ebay in an auction for
$100, nobody would touch it. Cranked the price to $250, and they sold.. Jack the
price higher and they sold better. Got up to I think $375.. Then the real work
took off again, and it got put on the back burner.

They aren't having a custom manifold cast because they are having a hard time keeping
the lights on.. They want to go to a car show and brag to their buddies about how much
they spent on this super customized thing that was made ESPECIALLY FOR THEM...

 

[cellardoor7]

You could have a sand mold printed for that part, and have it drop shipped
To the foundry of your choice. You’d have hard numbers for both the mold and the casting within a few days, and a part in a few weeks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Upnorth4]

Ed,
I thought the same thing when I first spoke to the customer. The common way to do this would be flanges and tube, stainless, aluminum, titanium, choose your flavor...

However the owner of the car gave the instructions to the shop (my customer?) "No visible welds" so the shop wanted to do it out of two pieces, machine the channel from the bottom and weld a plate over it and dress it out so that it isn't visible.

But to me the best way is to cast this thing. I can easily see that a foundry would not be interested in quoting this job, one offs don't make them money.

I have the first one already printed and I think it lends itself well to investment casting. There will be some "post cast finishing" to polish it up but likely not more than a machined part.

My plan is to take the printed part and a piece that I recently cast to show him that this is possible without porosity.
Then have a chat about $$.

I was shy on asking for $5k for the three cast parts, with the critical surfaces machined until I priced out what this vehicle is worth..... $5k is not a big ask in the context of this, I just need to step and quote it.

I saw a great sign in a Dr. office:

"This appointment is going to take about 30mins, it took me ten years of schooling to get this point where I can help you. I am charging you for a portion of those ten years, not the 30 mins"

 

[GregSY]

I don't think some of you have been around the hot rod crowd much.

First, I wonder if there isn't already a manifold on the market?

But anyway....the hot rod crowd doesn't want to brag about how much they paid for a part. They sometimes brag if they already paid it, as a lament, but they'd prefer not to pay it. What they want is cheap junk that is shiny, fits perfectly, bolts on in 15 minutes, and adds 400HP. If it doesn't meet all of those criteria, they whine. They have no concept of why a part that is of quality might cost a lot...especially when they are made in batches of 50...and the demand is so low it takes 25 years before #50 is sold.

Here's the life cycle of a hot rod part:

1) Demand! Everyone wants one.
2) Someone builds it and sells 100, not the 1000 that was demanded.
3) People complain about how much they cost, and wait for them to go on clearance.
4) They go on clearance, and people complain they really want the variation that is sold out already.
5) They're all sold out finally
6) People complain they're all sold out and wish they would bring them back
7) People pay more than they cost new for used ones that are half screwed up.



I think you'd be nuts to develop/sell any hot rod part.

 

[mneuro]

I did my best to estimate part size from the picture and how big a straight 6 should be.

I have this priced out around $3250 each for qty 3. That is machined complete with 5-axis for all the surfacing work.
Would be cheaper for sure as a casting.

As a side note, who designed the manifold? Was any consideration taken on runner lengths, dead stops, etc? Would be bad if you charge a bunch of money on a custom performance part and it operates worse than factory.

 

[Bobw]

I don't think some of you have been around the hot rod crowd much.

Straight 6.. Probably not the "32 Ford replica with a small block" in it crowd..

Just a guess..

Also a guess is that its something odd ball... and probably old.. You can
get manifolds for triple carbs for just about any straight 6 made in the past
70 years.

-----------
On the EVERYBODY WANTED ONE until a few people had them thing..

A friend of mine came up with a cool Harley thing.. Pretty substantial
in terms of the entire bike.. Got in a bunch of magazines, some famous
builders used them on some bikes.. DEMAND was HUGE!!.... until enough
people had them, and then nobody wanted them anymore.

1000's in demand.. Only a few hundred sold.

 

[AlfaGTA]

I do this sort of thing every day.....
Making unobtainable parts for old, rare cars. Its what we do here....

Never work with a hard quote, always time and materials.
Too easy to get trapped in unforeseen problems needing complex solutions...
Only way to be fair to both parties..

Cheers Ross

 

[Alloy Mcgraw]

But to me the best way is to cast this thing. I can easily see that a foundry would not be interested in quoting this job, one offs don't make them money.


I was shy on asking for $5k for the three cast parts, with the critical surfaces machined until I priced out what this vehicle is worth..... $5k is not a big ask in the context of this, I just need to step and quote it.

Think about what you are saying in your first line here. One offs quote at a premium or not at all? Apply that principle to your quote. Without being told you already know the foundry will do this, why should your quote be any different?

The second part has never made sense to me. What the car is worth means nothing..Imo

Quotes should be based on a multitude of things...It's a long list for me. Besides the obvious, this includes any drive time associated with the job, handling of materials/parts, packing, parts washing, packaging/packaging materials, shop towels/rags, media tumbling/blasting, quoting time, etc....There are tons of billable hours lost in these tiny overlooked tasks.

Everyone goes strait to materials/overhead...Yeah, no shit.

Attorneys bill in 10 minute increments...You will be billed for each email correspondence. How much time a year is spent answering emails? Lost time for many not billing for it.

 

[Bobw]

The second part has never made sense to me. What the car is worth means nothing..Imo

I've never understood that either.. Collector cars or beaters or even just random
classics..

Just an example. My 20+ year old truck... Once every few years I look, especially when oil
moves up or down, or I'm looking at another vehicle.. The value moves.. And its moved
a lot over the years, both up and down..

All I can do is laugh at the value.. I'm not selling it.. I know EXACTLY WHAT IS WRONG WITH IT!!!
I never every noise, I know every shimmy, I know exactly how old every component in that truck is.

Lets say my front end is SHOT!!! The "common" theory is if rebuilding the front end costs more
than the value, to sell it, and buy another one.. But if I can afford 3 grand, and my truck is
worth 3 grand.. Why the F* would I sell my truck that I know inside and out, on a wild ass gamble
that might need $5k worth of work.. And really, I did my whole front end not all that long ago,
ball joints (I need to do them again, DO NOT buy the cheap ones). u-joints, axel seals, unit bearings,
calipers, rotors, tie rods, track bar, sway bar bushings even.. Under $1100.

Even when my motor blows.. A while back I bought a low mileage spare, along with a tranny..
Sitting here, ready to go.. Waiting for "THAT" day.

And even if its not your daily driver. Sometimes, a car just calls to you.. The value doesn't mean
shit.

 

[Turbowerks]

I don't think some of you have been around the hot rod crowd much.

First, I wonder if there isn't already a manifold on the market?

But anyway....the hot rod crowd doesn't want to brag about how much they paid for a part. They sometimes brag if they already paid it, as a lament, but they'd prefer not to pay it. What they want is cheap junk that is shiny, fits perfectly, bolts on in 15 minutes, and adds 400HP. If it doesn't meet all of those criteria, they whine. They have no concept of why a part that is of quality might cost a lot...especially when they are made in batches of 50...and the demand is so low it takes 25 years before #50 is sold.

Here's the life cycle of a hot rod part:

1) Demand! Everyone wants one.
2) Someone builds it and sells 100, not the 1000 that was demanded.
3) People complain about how much they cost, and wait for them to go on clearance.
4) They go on clearance, and people complain they really want the variation that is sold out already.
5) They're all sold out finally
6) People complain they're all sold out and wish they would bring them back
7) People pay more than they cost new for used ones that are half screwed up.



I think you'd be nuts to develop/sell any hot rod part.

This hits the nail on the head! Only thing you missed they want you to trade it in for what they paid for the new latest and greatest part! Im not a second hand store lol sell it yourself.


When I find it I don’t need it
When I need it I can’t find it!

 

[triumph406]

I need some help. I have always been an employee. I have put in some long hours and worked with many teams to pull off some crazy things but I have never seen the invoice. Never had to make the call on what all of it is worth.

I just recently had a call from an old boss of mine, he gave my name to a guy who runs a hot rod shop and needed a hand with some CAD.

He needs a manifold for a straight six, changing it to a three carb set up from a single carb. Essentially three manifolds on a very custom design. (My end will be just the production of the manifolds, NOT balancing them and getting it to idle.... I will work with them to ensure that the needed features are present, ie balance ports and throttle linkages....)

I have the drawing done and the first prototype 3d printed, I am fairly confident that I can investment cast it out of A356. failing that I can machine it out of 6061 in two parts and weld it together.

BUT...... I literally have NO idea what to quote this guy.

-I don't want to screw this guy over, he is related to my current boss, I mean I wouldn't want to screw anyone over. But this car isn't his, it's a job he took on then had a hard time finding a local company to do the design and machining...

-this guys shop is busy, if I get this right there will almost certainly be more work coming my way. Double edge sword there though, if I price this one too low to get the work would I be expected to be cheap on the next jobs?

-I don't want to work for free, I can work over time at my day job if I pass this up

-I am confidant I can do this, I have the tools and feel good about my skills, I enjoy this work, if it goes sideways I want it to go sideways fast, so that I have time to sort it out before the deadline in mid December. So I want to give him a number soon and order the materials.

View attachment 332472

You can buy filament for 3D printers that can used in the wax investment process. I've never tried it but apparently it does work ok.

Amazon.com: Polymaker PolyCast Filament 1.75mm for Investment Casting 750g Spool - 3D Printer Filament for Lost Wax Investment for Casting Similar to Filament Wax Filament for Metal Casting Plaster Clean Burn Out : Industrial & Scientific

----------------------------

I hope the geometry in your picture isn't the finished product the transition into each runner doesn't look smooth to me. If the interior is a simple offset from the exterior it's not going to flow very well.

----------------------------

I made an exhaust manifold for a very rare American bike, came out great, until I gave the customer the price.

He didn't seem to think that the 4 hours we spent together designing and shaping the part should have been charged for,
Or the 2 hours on the manual lathe boring the id and roughing the od
Or the hour to make a fixture to put it onto the 4th axis
Or the programming required

Just the time spent on the machine getting a unique part made should have been charged for.

I was trying to explain to him all I had to do and all the hours it took. The problem was one of his hot rod buddies told him it should only cost $400. I asked him if his hot rod buddies could have made the part for $400. He said they couldn't because all they had was a Bridgeport. We evntually agreed on a price that was equiatable for both of us. Since then we agree on a price before I start.

Hod Rod guys are cheap, and the more money they have, the cheaper they get.

 

[Trboatworks]

One way to look at this is there are always changes going forward as a job is executed.
Sometimes it goes better/faster than you expect and it might be able to go out the door for less than quote.
Other times... it eats up more time and costs more.

Always bid to allow for the job to take more resources to execute than you expect.
That allows you to let out door at actual cost.
If you bid low it is a rare client who is perfectly ok with increases in costs above quote.

I am invoicing a job right now- bid at about 60% of where I should have been.
The only saving grace is the client laid on a couple of change orders so I can fatten up the billing a bit.

For my clients (all clients) there are three things in every job-

-What you do.
-When you do it.
-How much it cost.

What is costs is the least important aspect of a job for my work.
The clients often have a range where they have budgeted for the work- It might be say $10k-$15k and they are fine anywhere in that range.
I may be way thin if I am at lower side and comfortable at the mid to upper side so I try to not skim costs to much.
Focus on bidding to really meet exactly what is required in the produced work and get it out the door on time.

If your bid cost is too high the client can simply take the next lower cost tier from another shop.
Don't sweat losing work to lower bids- once in a contract you have to complete the work in a credible fashion regardless of if you are making money or not.
If you bid too low you are burning shop time and pushing decent paying jobs away till you get done.

 

[doug925]

I quoted the last three jobs low because the numbers seemed like too much for what I was providing.
Like the post above said- don't fall into that trap believe me.
Quote high enough to comfortably cover your labor and materials and let them decide if they want to go forward.

There is no such thing as "screwing someone over" with a quote.
You quote- they decide if that works for them.

The worse outcome is getting into a commitment where your costs are not covered- that is bad for them and you.

BTDTGTT
I hate when I look at a part and start thinking: The price is too much for that part.
DON'T DO THAT! you will lose money every time.


Quoting is not easy, even after 25+ years.
Think everything through. Don't waste time trying to account for every minute, X the # or parts, blah,blah,blah.
Think in terms of HOURS or DAYS to complete the project, not minutes.
Don't fall into the "I can do it in 8 minutes" because 'Charlie' the operator will take 4X as long as the guy quoting.

Think how long the 'chip sweeper' or 'slowest guy in the shop' will take. Quote it short, and Murphy's law will mandate that the slow guy ends up running the job.

Also, don't forget to take the total figured price (including marked up material, special tooling, setup, programming, etc) and multiply it by your desired margin.
Ask me why I would state something so basic? For many years, I was underquoting, and wondered why I had no $$$$.

Doug.

 

[Larry Dickman]

one thing I've found about the hot rod guys. When they're selling, everything's worth it's weight in gold.

When they're buying, they all want NASA quality at Pep Boys prices.