Re-conditioning a big European shaper-spindle molder

[stoneaxe]

I have a EMA/Casadei F115,mfg 1989, it has sat unused for 20 years or so. It was a production machine. A nice heavy machine, needs some TLC. Spindle bearings are free, but dry, and a bit noisy spinning by hand. I want to pull the spindle out and replace the bearings-



It looks like the top bearing is retained in the housing by a cap of some sort- there is a top ring that turns with the spindle called a "fan", it has little rubber vanes on it, and under that is a cap for the bearing , I assume it is either threaded or bolted into the housing.

I was thinking about pulling the housing (the spindle and spindle housing (quill?) not the cylinder it all fits in) out and working on it on the bench, but maybe it can be left in the machine and worked on in place? Any ideas? How to pull and drive the bearings with no damage? I never took one of these apart before.

Also- the motor is hard to turn by hand on the pulley- the manual says it has an electro-mechanical disk brake- is this why? It has to be connected to power to release the brake?

 

[M. Moore]

Stone,

I have an Ema spindle moulder about the same age maybe a little older. Mine does not have the fan on top of the spindle cartridge. I can't remember if I took out the spindle and replaced the bearings, I probably did but don't recall it being difficult. I do remember that I had a hell of a time getting the arbour out of the spindle. The lock nut was very tight and I was not entirely sure how it worked as I had no drawings or other info. I had to make my own wrench out of 1/4" aluminum and that has worked very well. I bought the smaller 3/4" arbour for mine as I had some tooling that size but I normally use the 1.25" arbour.

The spindle lock nut has a double thread with two different thread pitches so it self locks. It does take a little bit of finesse to lock the nut down properly. If you don't do it right the taper on the arbour won't seat and the spindle will wobble. It is not that hard to get it right but it can be done wrong so take your time to make sure it is correct. I like the nut and arbour flange to be flush when fully tightened.

Bubba had overtightened the nut prior to me purchasing the machine and it took a hell of a lot of torque to remove the nut the first time. Fortunately it is robust and there was no damage to anything.

These are a pretty good machine and it has done a lot of work for me over the years after I figured out the electrical problem. Yes the machine has a brake and needs power to release the brake. It also has a spindle lock that is interlocked with the switch so it won't start if you leave it locked for changing tooling.
It is easy to forget to release the manual spindle lock so make sure the electrical interlock is functioning.

Personally I would get it running fully before changing the spindle bearings to make sure everything works properly. If at that point you feel the bearings are toast then go ahead and change them out as I don't recall that they are special in any way.

 

[Scruffy887]

Electric brakes are a PITA because they are always on when the spindle is off. Had one machine with it and took it off. Grease the spindle and see it that quiets it down. Maybe never greased at all during its life. Wood workers tend to run till failure and repair (send it out). Little rubber fan is to keep dust and swarf away from bearing end. You WILL need to use it with a dust collector because they can leave a crappy finish if re cutting chips. Chips don't really re cut, just get pressed into the finished stock leaving a rub mark.

 

[stephen thomas]

I like Scruffy's approach.
It may well need bearings.....or it might not.
Did you price a set before determining to scrap them whatever the condition?

Or sometimes they just have a bit too much sawdust ingested.

Probably at least ABEC 5. Might even be 7. Big diameters.

Don't want to poo-poo removing, you don't want to spin them in the housing or on the spindle and cause deeper problems, so worth the investigation. But might or might not need actual replacement.

smt

 

[richard newman]

If you do replace the bearings, and they are not sealed, I'd use Kluber grease in them. It's expensive, but lasts a really long time.

 

[M. Moore]

These are sealed bearings as there is no provision for manual greasing.

 

[stoneaxe]

The bearings are not too expensive- the top one has a grease fitting, the bottom one is sealed.
559013-C3 and 306216 2RSC-C3

Is the -C3 like ABEC 3? About $60 for the big one, less for the smaller.

The entire spindle with bearings may be top loaded into the quill (or housing - what is that called anyway?)

Does the pulley nut on the bottom hold the spindle into the housing, so it lifts or pushes out toward the top? I can see no way to remove the top cap "fan" to access any bearing retainer plate.
update- I called Casadei, they were not familiar with the old EMA, but said this it is likely the spindle loads from the top.

If this is the case, I could maybe pull is apart, press on the new bearings, then stick the housing in the oven to gain a bit of clearance and slide in the spindle.

I emailed a spindle repair firm but this is way under their level.

Regarding the double threaded removable spindle nut- I suspect this is to allow a forced (by thread) removal- it is a morse #5 taper and without mechanical assistance I doubt the spindle would come loose.

 

[M. Moore]

Stone,
I just checked my machine and it is an F114 so maybe a slightly different model. It has no grease fitting at the top bearing. The arbour seems the same and it is a #5 morse. The double thread nut is required to release the taper.
Mine has a bolted on plate at the top of the spindle housing so it makes sense that it comes out the top. That way you can change the bearings without removing the housing.
Have you got the arbour out of the spindle? The nut is right hand thread.

 

[M. Moore]

I just checked again and there is a small grease fitting on mine for the top bearing. I also have the manual and a brochure which shows the F115 machine which looks identical but has a foot brake as standard. It is slightly larger and has a bigger motor as well.

The drawing I have shows two different spindle arrangements, one with a fixed arbour and one with the removable. The fixed one has the fan and the removable does not show the fan.

Is there a large collar under the arbour with some 1/4" wide vertical slots for a wrench?

 

[stoneaxe]

I just checked again and there is a small grease fitting on mine for the top bearing. I also have the manual and a brochure which shows the F115 machine which looks identical but has a foot brake as standard. It is slightly larger and has a bigger motor as well.

The drawing I have shows two different spindle arrangements, one with a fixed arbour and one with the removable. The fixed one has the fan and the removable does not show the fan.

Is there a large collar under the arbour with some 1/4" wide vertical slots for a wrench?

Yes, slotted collar and arbor are out of the taper - all those parts look fine. No taper damage.

Just trying to figure out how to get the spindle out of the housing- the drawing shows a "fan"- a metal collar rotating with the spindle with some rubber vanes, under that a bearing, under that a grease shield. No retaining collar for the bearing outer race.
The spindle bottom end shows a washer stack and a bearing, then pulley and nut. (the drawing is not clear, there may be a snap ring retainer on the spindle shaft, but it would only engage the inner bearing race anyway no no impediment to pulling the spindle.)

The main question- as far as I can see, there is no mechanical means of retaining the spindle in the cylindrical housing. If there is, it is under the "fan", which has no obvious method of removal and seems to be trapped under a lip on the spindle. The drawing shows no other parts. Could this entire assembly rely on a press fit?

 

[M. Moore]

Stone,
I think all will be revealed once you pull the spindle. Looks like you have to remove the pulley and tap it upwards based on the drawings in your first post. Those drawings are different than what I have which may be older but removal appears the same. Where is the grease fitting for the top bearing on your spindle?

 

[stoneaxe]

Stone,
I think all will be revealed once you pull the spindle. Looks like you have to remove the pulley and tap it upwards based on the drawings in your first post. Those drawings are different than what I have which may be older but removal appears the same. Where is the grease fitting for the top bearing on your spindle?

The grease fitting is right on top of the "fan" .

Now here is a question- the specs on the 559018 top bearing say 7700 rpm with grease, 9000 with oil. This shaper has a 10,000 top speed. Hmm. Maybe that is why they put a little fan on top of the bearing?
https://www.vxb.com/6011-Nachi-Bearing-Open-C3-Japan-55x90x18-p/kit9813.htm

 

[M. Moore]

I actually think the fan is to clear the chips from below the cutter? On my machine the lower area fills with chips and it is not easy to hook up dust collection.
Just a guess as my spindle does not have the fan. However it may have been removed or broken given where I bought it from but it does not show on the drawings I have for my machine.

 

[Scruffy887]

If you got it just to restore it, tear it down and do it. But if you got it because you need its solid mass, grease and go for it with some huge knives and a 4 roll power feeder. I have a slip knife set for 6" radius quarter round (safety type). Mount knives, check rotation, check everything twice again, and then.......Lay down on the floor and power on. If nothing explodes put one piece through the machine and delegate somebody else to run the job. While you run to an underground bunker.

 

[stephen thomas]

Did you get the spindle out?
This is fast because i'm dallying, supposed to be on way to a job....

Anyway, one way to pull spindles is to loosen the top nut on the shaper that holds the shaft. Keep it threadedon, but unscrew it enough to come up above the tool-body flange on the spindle. Then put a tool body or stack of slugs on the spindle. Then tighten the stack down against the advanced spindle retaining nut, to pop the spindle out.

smt

 

[stoneaxe]

Did you get the spindle out?
This is fast because i'm dallying, supposed to be on way to a job....

Anyway, one way to pull spindles is to loosen the top nut on the shaper that holds the shaft. Keep it threadedon, but unscrew it enough to come up above the tool-body flange on the spindle. Then put a tool body or stack of slugs on the spindle. Then tighten the stack down against the advanced spindle retaining nut, to pop the spindle out.

smt

Good idea, thanks! I think you are referring to popping out the removable , tool holding portion of the spindle, with some modification this method could also be used to pull the lower portion out, the one with a female taper running in bearings.

My main concern is that there is something else holding the lower spindle in the bearings than just a press fit.

 

[stoneaxe]

Good idea, thanks! I think you are referring to popping out the removable , tool holding portion of the spindle, with some modification this method could also be used to pull the lower portion out, the one with a female taper running in bearings.

My main concern is that there is something else holding the lower spindle in the bearings than just a press fit.

Heh! A guy on woodweb stuck a spoon in my brain and stirred vigorously, now I see what was invisible to me before.

I was under the impression the shaft loaded into the spindle housing from above, both bearings and all- so a cap would be needed to retain the bearings, because the bearing would both seat on the bottom race. This cap is widely seen on milling spindles.

He pointed out the top bearing loads from the top, and the bottom bearing loads from the bottom, with a nut and spacers to control the preload. So the bearings seat one on the top race, and the other on the bottom, like 10 million other spindles out there. How did I miss this?

Anyway, thank you all for the help!
Stoneaxe.

 

[stoneaxe]

Got the spindle taper blued and cleaned up, and put in an arbor, it is running .0005 out a couple inches up from the bearing- I ordered some Kubler grease ($$$) and will grease it and run it before tearing it down.
Seems like there is .001 side play in the bearing, but it is a c3 class , more clearance than a normal bearing- I am guessing it is to keep the heat down. Nachi says 7500 rpm max for a grease lubricated 559018, and this shaper has a 10K limit.

Hooked up power from a phase converter, and can get the motor to spin -either not at all, clockwise, or counterclockwise- but not both cw and ccw- no matter how the wires were switched around. The converters generated leg must be involved somehow. The voltage is different on this leg, they say not to use the generated leg for control circuitry-I don't know how a reversing switch is wired, guess it is time to pull it apart and find out- !

 

[richard newman]

.0005" TIR is not bad at all, well within the .001" that most shaper manufacturers claim. Did you try rotating the arbor to different positions in the taper, might be a spot where it's better. Could be useful if you're going to run at 10K, altho I'd think that speed is for a router chuck.

 

[stoneaxe]

.0005" TIR is not bad at all, well within the .001" that most shaper manufacturers claim. Did you try rotating the arbor to different positions in the taper, might be a spot where it's better. Could be useful if you're going to run at 10K, altho I'd think that speed is for a router chuck.

With size of machine, I can see a 50mm arbor would be nice. All my tooling is 1 1/4" bore though.
Sent the motor out today for examination- the input leads to the windings had crumbling insulation.
Next is to see if the $$$$$ Kubler grease can smooth up the spindle- they were very helpful in supplying directions for forcing out old or unknown grease and injecting the new.

After that is a back fence construction.