Re-conditioning a big European shaper-spindle molder

[beckerkumm]

The smaller bearing can be a sealed due to the higher rpm limit but generally running C3 bearings in a spindle is a cost cutting measure to avoid either an oil distribution system or expensive bearings. A stamped steel cage bearing will seldom be higher precision than ABEC 3 because the cage becomes the limiting factor. The proper top bearing if you can find one is a phenolic or brass cage ABEC 5 or 7 with normal or C2 clearance. Since a large shaper seldom runs over 6000-7000 rpm an ABEC 3 SKF Explorer type bearing in C3 is cheaper unless you find a deal on ebay for the precision one. When running a C3 in a shaper, I'd run the spindle a few minutes before cutting anything to tighten up the runout. I think you will find that warming up the bearings by running them will reduce the runout as the clearance is reduced by the temperature increase. Not ideal but that is why newer shapers cost less than the old ones with large high load bearings in an oil drip system. Dave

 

[stoneaxe]

The smaller bearing can be a sealed due to the higher rpm limit but generally running C3 bearings in a spindle is a cost cutting measure to avoid either an oil distribution system or expensive bearings. A stamped steel cage bearing will seldom be higher precision than ABEC 3 because the cage becomes the limiting factor. The proper top bearing if you can find one is a phenolic or brass cage ABEC 5 or 7 with normal or C2 clearance. Since a large shaper seldom runs over 6000-7000 rpm an ABEC 3 SKF Explorer type bearing in C3 is cheaper unless you find a deal on ebay for the precision one. When running a C3 in a shaper, I'd run the spindle a few minutes before cutting anything to tighten up the runout. I think you will find that warming up the bearings by running them will reduce the runout as the clearance is reduced by the temperature increase. Not ideal but that is why newer shapers cost less than the old ones with large high load bearings in an oil drip system. Dave

Very informative- thank you!

 

[M. Moore]

Becker, (Dave)
That is excellent relevant info. I have never checked the runout on my spindle but I am going to do some tests.
Stone,
Did you get your electrical problem sorted? When I bought my machine many years ago it would not start at all except for a little “burp” of movement. It took me hours to track down the broken link inside the mag switch. It had just enough contact to allow the motor to burp and then nothing, it also had enough contact to show as continuous when tested with a meter. I don’t recall how I fixed it but the machine has been working well ever since.

 

[stoneaxe]

Becker, (Dave)
That is excellent relevant info. I have never checked the runout on my spindle but I am going to do some tests.
Stone,
Did you get your electrical problem sorted? When I bought my machine many years ago it would not start at all except for a little “burp” of movement. It took me hours to track down the broken link inside the mag switch. It had just enough contact to allow the motor to burp and then nothing, it also had enough contact to show as continuous when tested with a meter. I don’t recall how I fixed it but the machine has been working well ever since.

Not yet- I was poking around in the motor connections and crumbled some old cooked motor lead insulation, so I brought it to a electrical motor repair shop. hopefully they can crimp the leads without having to go all the way back to the windings and then re-dip the thing. They will call with an estimate in a week or two- backlogged like everyone these days.

I did ask the phase converter guys, who were sure the converter was under powered, which it is- a 10hp rating (to start 5hp) and a 9hp motor.

However they could offer no explanation why the motor would start and run OK in one direction, or the other, but not reverse. My guess at this point is maybe there is some switching weirdness in the mag brake wiring, and it is not unlatching - it does have two wires going to the terminals, as if the brake was having power applied through two different sources, depending on whether fwd or reverse was switched on.
I'll figure it out, I sure wish they had spend 10$ more to put a actual door on the electrical panel, instead of having to unscrew a bunch of screws and switches to get into it.

 

[stoneaxe]

Got the motor back with new leads and bearings , all installed. A 30 hp phase converter showed up today so soon there will be enough power to run this thing. then the fun starts- full back fence.

BTW- anyone have an old large shaper fence? Probably rare, but one never knows. The one with this machine went missing somewhere. I don't strictly need it , but the dust hood would be helpful , as well as a place to mount some pressure rolls.

 

[Scruffy887]

What you need for any big shaper is a power feed. Keeps your fingers attached to your hands. Better finish on stock as well. If your machine came to you without a fence it may have lived its production life with a rub collar. But proper fence is a really good thing.

 

[stoneaxe]

What you need for any big shaper is a power feed. Keeps your fingers attached to your hands. Better finish on stock as well. If your machine came to you without a fence it may have lived its production life with a rub collar. But proper fence is a really good thing.

Heh- Trust me, I have no intention of using a hand feed!

Debating whether a belt feed or rollers will be best for long linear stock feeding against an outboard fence. Found out there are 5,6, 7 roller feeders out there. Might be good to keep the stock up tight to the fence.

 

[stoneaxe]

The smaller bearing can be a sealed due to the higher rpm limit but generally running C3 bearings in a spindle is a cost cutting measure to avoid either an oil distribution system or expensive bearings. A stamped steel cage bearing will seldom be higher precision than ABEC 3 because the cage becomes the limiting factor. The proper top bearing if you can find one is a phenolic or brass cage ABEC 5 or 7 with normal or C2 clearance. Since a large shaper seldom runs over 6000-7000 rpm an ABEC 3 SKF Explorer type bearing in C3 is cheaper unless you find a deal on ebay for the precision one. When running a C3 in a shaper, I'd run the spindle a few minutes before cutting anything to tighten up the runout. I think you will find that warming up the bearings by running them will reduce the runout as the clearance is reduced by the temperature increase. Not ideal but that is why newer shapers cost less than the old ones with large high load bearings in an oil drip system. Dave

In the manual, there are two shapers covered, very similar machines- the base model lists a
559018 C3 upper bearing, and a 306216 2RS C3 lower. The upscale model has the same lower bearing, but a 559018 CP4 upper. What is the "CP4"? All I can find is a "P4", which seems to indicate a expensive angular thrust bearing. I thought those had to be used in pairs?

 

[Scruffy887]

Your machine may go to 10,000 rpm but you will never need it. I have never run mine beyond 6000, just not needed. Also very dangerous with large cutters.
I use 4 roll power feeders. Belted feeders have a specific use for short parts that are very well guided. With a 4 roll you can have the cutter centered between rolls 2&3, sometimes even part of the cutter between them. There may be a time where you even run the roll into the roller because that is what needs to be done. Buy extra rollers!
Feeder is never aligned with the stock. About 1/4" skewed so it crowds the stock against the fence. Be aware that if you run an outboard fence (very handy) reversing the feeder will push the stock deeper into the cutter. Never run an outboard fence without some sort of inboard fence as a safety measure.
I have done so many restoration projects in my time. Sometimes grinding a cutter for 10 feet of molding. Just be careful and stay safe. I may type with 2 fingers, but all ten fingers are available.

 

[richard newman]

The only reason you'd want 10,000 rpm is if you have a router chuck for your machine. Router tables are ok, but the shaper is so much heavier and more stable...

I agree with everything Scruffy said about the feeder. I found it useful to hook mine up to a vfd to slow it down for shaping highly figured hard maple table lippings. With really sharp HSS lock edge knives the finish was great!
this is for one-off high end stuff, not production.

Scruffy - were you using lock edge or corrugated heads? I used lock edge heads with a bearing to be able to creep up to an inlaid ebony line on curved edges.

BTW, I have a lot of HSS lock edge knife stock if anyone needs it

 

[stoneaxe]

The person I got the shaper from located the fence, very nice! It is a different design- the fence actually screws to the outer-most of the table insert rings, and can pivot around the spindle. This outer insert ring has a camlock to lock it to the table. What the advantage of this is, I have no clue. Casadei shows it on many of thier shapers, at least the older ones.

I tried running it with the new converter, same story- the brake is not deactivating in one direction- so will have to do a dive into the wiring. I do not have a schematic, Casadei cannot supply one, machine is too old.
So I will solve it the old way- slow, many miss-steps, and stubborn persistence!

 

[Scruffy887]

The only reason you'd want 10,000 rpm is if you have a router chuck for your machine. Router tables are ok, but the shaper is so much heavier and more stable...

I agree with everything Scruffy said about the feeder. I found it useful to hook mine up to a vfd to slow it down for shaping highly figured hard maple table lippings. With really sharp HSS lock edge knives the finish was great!
this is for one-off high end stuff, not production.

Scruffy - were you using lock edge or corrugated heads? I used lock edge heads with a bearing to be able to creep up to an inlaid ebony line on curved edges.

BTW, I have a lot of HSS lock edge knife stock if anyone needs it

I am supposed to remember lock edge vs corrugated? My set of 6" radius quarter round knives were huge and had the edge serrations to use with a matching cutter body. Made for stock min 1.875 thick and had to run one side at a time. Half of profile with bevel, then turn around. Still a huge swing. Corrugated stuff was run on my shapers with Weinig molder heads from knives I ground when I had the Weinig molder and grinder. A huge part of the restoration work was done with............done with...........a Sears Craftsman molder head made for a small table saw. Something like 3.5" diameter. Cheap and easy to grind knives available and for soo many short runs, find 2 knives that are close for balance, grind the real one for the profile. Many restoration projects had the same panel molding room to room. NOT. Each room was done by a set of knives with a hand molding plane. Looked the same, but not. Also a lot of grinding with a Leitz? cutter set, some stock knives, many blanks hand ground.

On one job I had to make a 6" piece on baseboard cap to complete a room. Made it and my man on site was doing a lot of different install parts. But when he got this piece the master plaster man got wind of what he was going to do. Plaster man was the real thing and sneaked into the room where the 6" piece was needed. Took his tools and quickly re created the baseboard cap in place, had the painter prime it right away.
Yeah, my guy was lost on that one.

 

[richard newman]

Great story about the "plaster scam" Those guys were incredibly skilled, so much of the detail in old interiors were done by the plaster guy. Must still be some of them left for restoration work, probably get paid well. The skill on display in a 19th or early 20th century upscale house can be astounding.

I was a lock edge guy. Pretty easy to grind off hand, and the adjustment radially was critical to me. Used to have everyone get on the floor when we first started up the machine. Never had one fly out, but... I sometimes shaped brass feet on the shaper, had an apron made of 1/2" cdx to protect the jewels. The chips flew like shrapnel, but the cut was great. Have a big drawer full of knives I'll never use again, and all my fingers, which I still use. My injuries were from falling boards crushing body parts or tripping over shit on the floor.

 

[macgyver]

I just picked up one of these with a sliding table. It too has sat for awhile and I will need to figure out what all the doodads do. Have you put this one back together and used it yet? How does the spindle lock/interlock work? I'll admit I have not done much but look at it yet, but the choke cable going to the bottom of the spindle doesn't seem to be right, but I don't know just yet. Did you get a manual from Casadei or did it come with your machine?
Thanks,

Jason

 

[Scruffy887]

I know nothing about Casadei but I can tell you many big shapers have a spindle lock pedal, and a spindle brake pedal. If you power off and step on the spindle lock while coasting down you will hear a lot of really bad sounds. Yeah, I hired a guy to do that.
Set it up with power feeder and all. Told him to run the bundle and done. I was nearby when he powered down and he made this big WAAA sound just before he stomped on the lock. Sheared the lock pin off. His talents were needed elsewhere and I sent him on his way. I think he went back to unloading freezer trucks.

 

[macgyver]

I spent a bit of time on this while I had a long cycle on the router. There is not a lock pedal, it has a knob you push/pull to run the spindle lock into the spindle and it looks like there is an interlock to keep from being able to turn it on with the lock engaged, but I'd guess a person could try to engage it when running..

Mine has a motor brake on it too, wouldn't have known to even look for it without this thread. It work as it should. The only thing stopping me at the moment is I can't get it to turn the spindle on with the go button. I can push in the override on the contactor directly and the spindle motor turns on. Have not tracked down what is stopping it yet. It has an E stop and that door and spindle lock interlock (same switch for both), so I am guessing it is the interlock circuit, but it is not bluntly obvious to me how it ties into the start circuit. All the electrics are in a deep tiny box, so I'm going to try and get them out where I can see stuff.

 

[stoneaxe]

Jason,
Yes I got the shaper up and running and it is the smoothest of the ones I have. Weighs twice as much too. Very nice cut.

Stoneaxe quote- "However they could offer no explanation why the motor would start and run OK in one direction, or the other, but not reverse. My guess at this point is maybe there is some switching weirdness in the mag brake wiring, and it is not unlatching - it does have two wires going to the terminals, as if the brake was having power applied through two different sources, depending on whether fwd or reverse was switched on."

The problem with the electrical was that somehow, L1,L2, and L3 are changed around inside the electrical panel- and the brake , IIRC, is only powered off one of them. Might not matter on a grid supply, but I was focused on trying to keep the RPC generated leg from powering the control circuitry. And somehow, that leg switched terminals in the contactor- I don't know enough about this stuff to know how or why.

It is a PIA to take off the panel, be aware only some of the screws visible attach the panel to the machine frame, some of them attach the switches to the panel in the interior.

And the brake switch has to be in the ON position for the motor to run- OFF position energizes the brake release so the spindle can be turned by hand, but interrupts motor current for safety..

The spindle lock/switch knob is a bit flaky, and the door latch screw that engages the same switch. Took a bit of messing around to get it all easy to work. That part looks like a Macgyverini Italian approch to meeting some new euro spec safey reg, before they had a chance to develop something more elegant.

 

[M. Moore]

Have not tracked down what is stopping it yet. It has an E stop and that door and spindle lock interlock (same switch for both), so I am guessing it is the interlock circuit, but it is not bluntly obvious to me how it ties into the start circuit. All the electrics are in a deep tiny box, so I'm going to try and get them out where I can see stuff.

The interlock switches are just a single wire that is connected to the coil start circuit. Easy to just join the wire together which then enables the coil and start circuit. Pull the wires off each interlock and join together and then try the start button. If no go then the problem is elsewhere.
My EMA shaper has two switches on the control panel that need to be in the “on” position in order to start the machine. I find the Euro symbols less than helpful.

One thing I added to my machine was a large kick panel that pushes the stop button. When both hands are busy I can easily kick the panel and stop the spindle.

I have run some larger cutters for handrail shapes and have had a cutter slip. This usually happens when taking a heavy cut and the stock is engaged. It is easy to hear but you must shut down the feed and spindle immediately or BANG! One time a cutter slipped out and the damage was impressive however it stayed inside the fence opening.

I have some bevel edge collars that have been modified for safety, a small pin was installed and a matching notch in the cutter keeps the cutter from sliding out. It can move a little (for setup) but won’t come out of the collars.
Best practice is to take multiple cuts to reduce the load on the cutters, it takes more time but is much safer.

 

[Scruffy887]

The interlock switches are just a single wire that is connected to the coil start circuit. Easy to just join the wire together which then enables the coil and start circuit. Pull the wires off each interlock and join together and then try the start button. If no go then the problem is elsewhere.
My EMA shaper has two switches on the control panel that need to be in the “on” position in order to start the machine. I find the Euro symbols less than helpful.

One thing I added to my machine was a large kick panel that pushes the stop button. When both hands are busy I can easily kick the panel and stop the spindle.

I have run some larger cutters for handrail shapes and have had a cutter slip. This usually happens when taking a heavy cut and the stock is engaged. It is easy to hear but you must shut down the feed and spindle immediately or BANG! One time a cutter slipped out and the damage was impressive however it stayed inside the fence opening.

I have some bevel edge collars that have been modified for safety, a small pin was installed and a matching notch in the cutter keeps the cutter from sliding out. It can move a little (for setup) but won’t come out of the collars.
Best practice is to take multiple cuts to reduce the load on the cutters, it takes more time but is much safer.

Do yourself a favor and measure the height of the cutter from the floor, then measure from the floor to your nuts. When slip knives come out you will know where to look for them. I am not sure they are even legal to use anymore. I have boxes of knives and not a single slip knife. I would never use them. They are called SLIP for a reason. WTF do you think will happen if the final slip happens after the stock has passed? When one slips they all slip, either a 2 or 3 knife head. I have stories and survival of the operator was not part of the story.

 

[M. Moore]

Scruffy,
There is no need to get so upset. I was pointing out what happened and what I thought was the reason for the slipped knife. I also provided a simple method to make bevel edge knives safer. Installing a pin and a matching notch in the cutter will prevent a knife from coming out of the collars.
Just so you know there are no bevel edge collars that contain three knives. The system is set up for two knives and in my case both knives were cut from the same bar stock, balanced and very sharp. The heavy cut caused one knife to slip which was instantly audible and the machine was shut down. The material was then run through in several steps with less cut depth and the job was completed, no one was injured.
I stand a much greater chance of being injured every time I get in my vehicle and drive on the highway.