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Recommendations for a new guy, new sinker EDM machine

BOB-OO

Cast Iron
Joined
Dec 5, 2010
Location
NE PA
Hay guys,

Never used EDM before 0 experience, 25 years machining stuff. CAD/CAM, 5axis, Millturn & grinding. We've started doing a bunch of hard small tooling 65Rc. Mostly pins and dies, we've been sending the work out $$$ and have a good shop but process control, needing to service our tooling same day and development of new tooling is pushing us towards buying our 1st EDM sinker. All small work (4" length max, .375" diameter will make all our pins- dies less then 2" Dia x 1" length with small holes, a rotary axis would be helpful)We don't have a lot of work so speed won't be an issue but when we need a part- we need it now- reliability is important.

I'm hoping some of you experienced smart guys, could make 2 recommendations based on your experiences - new equipment and used, maybe some idea of what we should budget.

Thank you, all advice is appreciated.
 
Hi BOB-OO:

There are a couple of fundamental things about sinker EDM to bear in mind when you choose:

1) Modern is way way WAY better than old school...the differences are vast, primarily in ease of use, efficiency and precision.
These are not trivial incremental improvements...they are game changing.
Let me say this again: Do NOT buy a manual machine or ZNC machine with an orbiter if you wish to be competitive in the modern EDM world.
It doesn't matter how attractive the price is.
It doesn't matter how pretty the machine is.
It doesn't matter how many gadgets it comes with.

2) Orphans are bad in this world...service and support mean a lot because they break, and when the screen stays black after the green button gets pushed, you need help.
The magical mystery of how they work is a pretty closely guarded trade secret for pretty much every manufacturer...DIY schematics are impossibly hard to come by, so when it shits the bed... yeah,you need help.
Some brands and models are impossibly hard to get parts for...on the other hand, there is a thriving second hand market for some other brands, so if you buy a used machine; don't buy an orphan...you'll never get it fixed the first time it craps out.
The quality of the support is a first tier buying decision...much more important than the bells and whistles it has or the cute graphics on the screen, or the pretty colours it's painted with.

3) Most brands can do most things pretty well, but there are some specialty applications where it matters what you get.
The poster child for this is the micro EDM space...there are a few players in this domain who are standouts for precision and finish with ridiculously small burns under low power.
If this is your need, a conventional machine will be a fundamentally poor choice you really cannot work around.

I am a Makino and Sodick fan...not because I've owned or run them, but because I know people who do own them and because of the quality of the things they were able to do for me when I subbed work out to them.
There are others who swear by Mitsubishi, and others who swear by Agie or Charmilles.

All are good brands that make top of the line machines but they are all pricey compared to the Asian offerings like Chmer, and Gromax and others.
If you have the coin to spend and can justify it, the premium price buys you a better service network, a more robust machine and a nicer user experience.

I own a Chmer wire EDM...it's a solid working Chevy, but it's annoyingly crappy in the small execution details...things like sharp edged buttons that hurt your fingers until you file them smooth, and crooked lettering on the control. and poor operation manuals written in Chinglish etc etc.
None are show stoppers and I've made good money on my machine, but if you really like nice things you'll hate one of these.

The other thing is the service costs...Sodick was conspicuously good to me when I owned one: so is the Chmer I own now...contrast that with buddies of mine who owned Agie or Charmilles.
All I can say, is be sitting down when you get quoted for a new monitor (or anything else) for an Agie or other high end Swiss machine.
"Reasonable" is not in their vocabulary when it comes to the price of ANYTHING around these premier machines.

So that's it in a nutshell; reach out to the tech reps for the various brands and let them make their pitches.
If it was small, super high precision stuff I'd buy a Makino.
If it was run-of -the-mill stuff I'd buy a linear motor Sodick, but I'd be blissfully happy with a Makino too.
I currently own a Hansvedt MS4 Foreman from 1996...You'd HATE it as soon as you ran a more modern higher end machine.
Others will have different preferences.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
 
I've only ran mits sinkers so I am biased. They are very reliable and accurate. The machines i ran had tool changers and rotating c axis, meaning you could rotate the electrode. You could make it spin all the time when running round electrodes. That, along with vectoring made very accurate holes.
 
Thank you both, much appreciated.

I love Mitsu/Mazak controls great service in my area, I'll start w Mitsu & Makino.
 
Definitely look into the Sodick too. Their sinkers are very well regarded.

On a side note Marcus-

Didn't know you ran Chmer. Fun fact, we were the first shop to buy one of those back in 1998 or so. Decent machines, ran them for 20 years, but once we started transitioning everything over to Fanuc you really start to see the not so good things about them. Also the support could definitely leave much to be desired.
 
Hi wdevine:
You wrote:
"Didn't know you ran Chmer. Fun fact, we were the first shop to buy one of those back in 1998 or so."

Yes, I bought mine in 2011 brand new, to replace a 1996 Sodick A320 that was tired and just too unreliable to keep going with.
I paid about half of what a premier brand would have cost, and I traded in the old Sodick for a brand new rotary axis for my new wire.

No regrets...I went into it with eyes open and forced myself to make the pragmatic choice, but I kinda knew I was buying a Chevy.

A shop near me has a Makino...I'm jealous and have lust.
Another has Charmilles sinkers and wires...I'm not envious at all.
Another shop has a pair of Fanucs...I had to do their more complex wire work for a number of years before they got up to speed...don't know if it was the machine or the wire guy.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
 
Well last shop I was at, we had 12 Fanucs, I did plenty of complex work on those, I'm guessing it was their wire guy.

Where I'm at now I'm running a Makino. In my opinion, neither one is better than the other, they both have their strengths and weaknesses. I think I still may prefer the Fanuc.
 
Well last shop I was at, we had 12 Fanucs, I did plenty of complex work on those, I'm guessing it was their wire guy.

Where I'm at now I'm running a Makino. In my opinion, neither one is better than the other, they both have their strengths and weaknesses. I think I still may prefer the Fanuc.

I run Fanuc mills and am familiar with controls, parameters and their service which is good in my area.
Why do you prefer the Fanuc? What would you say are the Makino's weaknesses?
 
Hi BOB-OO:

There are a couple of fundamental things about sinker EDM to bear in mind when you choose:

1) Modern is way way WAY better than old school...the differences are vast, primarily in ease of use, efficiency and precision.
These are not trivial incremental improvements...they are game changing.
Let me say this again: Do NOT buy a manual machine or ZNC machine with an orbiter if you wish to be competitive in the modern EDM world.
It doesn't matter how attractive the price is.
It doesn't matter how pretty the machine is.
It doesn't matter how many gadgets it comes with.

2) Orphans are bad in this world...service and support mean a lot because they break, and when the screen stays black after the green button gets pushed, you need help.
The magical mystery of how they work is a pretty closely guarded trade secret for pretty much every manufacturer...DIY schematics are impossibly hard to come by, so when it shits the bed... yeah,you need help.
Some brands and models are impossibly hard to get parts for...on the other hand, there is a thriving second hand market for some other brands, so if you buy a used machine; don't buy an orphan...you'll never get it fixed the first time it craps out.
The quality of the support is a first tier buying decision...much more important than the bells and whistles it has or the cute graphics on the screen, or the pretty colours it's painted with.

3) Most brands can do most things pretty well, but there are some specialty applications where it matters what you get.
The poster child for this is the micro EDM space...there are a few players in this domain who are standouts for precision and finish with ridiculously small burns under low power.
If this is your need, a conventional machine will be a fundamentally poor choice you really cannot work around.

I am a Makino and Sodick fan...not because I've owned or run them, but because I know people who do own them and because of the quality of the things they were able to do for me when I subbed work out to them.
There are others who swear by Mitsubishi, and others who swear by Agie or Charmilles.

All are good brands that make top of the line machines but they are all pricey compared to the Asian offerings like Chmer, and Gromax and others.
If you have the coin to spend and can justify it, the premium price buys you a better service network, a more robust machine and a nicer user experience.

I own a Chmer wire EDM...it's a solid working Chevy, but it's annoyingly crappy in the small execution details...things like sharp edged buttons that hurt your fingers until you file them smooth, and crooked lettering on the control. and poor operation manuals written in Chinglish etc etc.
None are show stoppers and I've made good money on my machine, but if you really like nice things you'll hate one of these.

The other thing is the service costs...Sodick was conspicuously good to me when I owned one: so is the Chmer I own now...contrast that with buddies of mine who owned Agie or Charmilles.
All I can say, is be sitting down when you get quoted for a new monitor (or anything else) for an Agie or other high end Swiss machine.
"Reasonable" is not in their vocabulary when it comes to the price of ANYTHING around these premier machines.

So that's it in a nutshell; reach out to the tech reps for the various brands and let them make their pitches.
If it was small, super high precision stuff I'd buy a Makino.
If it was run-of -the-mill stuff I'd buy a linear motor Sodick, but I'd be blissfully happy with a Makino too.
I currently own a Hansvedt MS4 Foreman from 1996...You'd HATE it as soon as you ran a more modern higher end machine.
Others will have different preferences.

Cheers

Marcus
Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

Marcus,

Do you know what year Sodick went to linear motors? Looks like Mitsu switched in 2012ish, they were in today and are looking at some of our parts.
Haven't heard from Makino yet. Look at some used stuff too.

Thanks,
Bob
 
Marcus,

Do you know what year Sodick went to linear motors? Looks like Mitsu switched in 2012ish, they were in today and are looking at some of our parts.
Haven't heard from Makino yet. Look at some used stuff too.

Thanks,
Bob


If I remember correctly, Sodick went to Linear motors 2000-2002 time frame.
 
When it comes to running sinkers, experience is a big factor, more so then with wire, electrode fab. and planning comes into play, I have run everything from old tube type manual sinkers to the 4 axis CNC, some of them the orphans, Deckel, Eltee, Raycon,used CNC orbitors on manual machines, what a game changer they are for manuals !! Also much tooling and electrode fab. stuff is needed. along with the skills to mfg. them
 
Can't say the model or year, but I ran a Charmilles sinker, had orbiting, and a 4 position tool changer, very cool. Never had any problems.
 








 
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