Regreasing a Jones and Shipman 540 "heavy duty" 4-bearing spindle

[ballen]

[Mods: if you think it's better, please feel free to move this to "Machine reconditioning, scraping and inspection" forum.]

I haven't started a new thread here for a while, so here we go.

I've adjusted and where relevant regreased every metalworking spindle in my shop with one exception: my J&S 540 grinder. So far I haven't screwed any of them up. It would make sense to do the 540 spindle: the machine is from 1986 and I am 100% sure that the spindle has not been opened since it left the factory. Just thinking about the 37-year-old grease inside makes me squirm.

Most of these machines have a spindle with one angular contact ball bearing at each end. And there are several threads here which nicely document taking the spindle out and replacing or regreasing the bearings. Plus the happy fact that it costs very little to just replace these two bearings with new ones from J&S: around 100 bucks for both of them.

This, however, does not apply to the spindle of my J&S 540APR. APR means a model with auto cross (motorized), auto down, auto stop, auto reverse and probably other auto stuff as well that I have not figured out. The designers made a couple of modifications with all that "auto" in mind. One is that the cross slide runs on 5mm needle rollers between cast iron, rather than CI on oil on Ci. The second is that it has a "heavy duty" grinding spindle with FOUR ball bearings, rather than two. The machine is also rated for a 200 x 25mm wheel versus 180 x 20mm for the standard 540.

(One way to recognise the heavy duty spindle is because the taper is ~5mm longer than on the standard spindle. To use standard 540 hubs, I have to put a 5mm spacer under the hub nut.)

I have never seen any documentation about removing and regreasing those 4-bearing spindles, but the nice people at Andmar just told me something interesting. I asked about the design and the availability of bearings in case I screw it up, and they told me that the heavy duty 540 spindle is the same design as the J&S 1400 grinder spindle and uses identical bearings to that. Here's a snapshot of that 1400 spindle from their web site showing the 4 bearings:



FWIW the bearings are 1 x Match pair E225 super precision bearings at the pulley end and 1 x Match pair E230 super precision bearings at the wheel end. Total cost is about 600 bucks for all four. Hopefully I wouldn't need these, but it's good to know that they are available and cost significantly less than the machine did.

So, my idea is to get around to this later in the summer. But before I do that, I want to do my homework and mental prep. Or if this is a Really Bad Idea, figure that out beforehand. Has anyone here taken apart a J&S1400 spindle and regreased it. Can a normal human being do this without f**king up the spindle and/or bearings?

Cheers,
Bruce

 

[Mark Rand]

J&S claimed that the bearings were/are "greased for life", but our machines tend to have a second life! My 1400 is 1976 vintage and I'm planning to rebuild it as soon as I can (need to lap the 36" x 48" surface table to better than the 3 microns that I did the first time around and make a King Way set to align the ways). I was planning to regrease the spindle if the bearings looked good enough to keep.
I don't see anything in the construction that makes the job impossible for folk like us, it just needs the normal levels of care that one uses when working on precision spindles.
Certainly after Hardinge/Kellenberger raped and murdered Jones&Shipman, one can't send the head back to Leicester for rebuilding!

The E225 and E230 are now precision 7205 for the 225 and another size for the 230. I was expecting to use the modern equivalents if needed.

 

[ballen]

Hi Mark,

I remember that you have a 1400 and was hoping that you had done this and would share pictures and wisdom.

J&S claimed that the bearings were/are "greased for life", but our machines tend to have a second life! My 1400 is 1976 vintage and I was planning to regrease the spindle if the bearings looked good enough to keep.

Exactly my approach.

one can't send the head back to Leicester for rebuilding!

Given that you're in the UK you could certainly send it to Andmar or Jubilee. But that's not your style.

The E225 and E230 are now precision 7205 for the 225 and another size for the 230. I was expecting to use the modern equivalents if needed.

Like this?

SKF

www.skf.com

Do you have the correct number for the other end?

Mark, do you know what Andmar meant when they wrote "Match pair" for the wheel end pair and the same for the pulley end pair? Could I go to any good bearing shop for these? Or is the "match" something that requires special orders and handling, and Andmar/Jubille/Hardinge are the only source?

Cheers,
Bruce

 

[Mark Rand]

I'm still a bit upset, because I bought a belt and a number of gaskets directly from the Leicester factory some years ago and they were extremely helpful to me. That's all gone now. I can use Andmar or Jubilee, but they have a fairly limited selection of spares.

These may be closer to the requirement:- https://www.bearingboys.co.uk/Preci...-Ball-Bearing-Pair-25mm-x-52mm-x-15mm-87305-p

That's a brass/bronze cage, rather than the (probably) phenolic of the original, but it's only a 3,000rpm application, so that's not an issue. P2 would be even better, than P4, but good luck in finding some of those!

I couldn't find an equivalent to the E230, but I'm guessing that it will be another 72xx series bearing rather than an obsolete inch based one.
I'm pretty sure that Andmar are just supplying standard matched pairs from the manufacturer, such as the example I listed. A CD pair instead of two CS singles. The manufacturers supply precision angular contact bearings in matched pairs as well as singles because that's how they are used. I can't guarantee that J&S used the equivalent of DU (flush ground) rather than DT (tandem), which is the beaing arrangement shown in my 1400 parts list.

A good bearing house should be able to supply appropriate bearings, although they may have to order them in, depends on what their normal market is. I've had success so far with online suppliers, although some searching is needed when looking for the higher grade products.

 

[ballen]

Hi Mark,

I'm still a bit upset, because I bought a belt and a number of gaskets directly from the Leicester factory some years ago and they were extremely helpful to me. That's all gone now. I can use Andmar or Jubilee, but they have a fairly limited selection of spares.

When I first got my machine and was trying to figure things out, I also rang up the Leicester factory and talked with people in the spares department. It was the same thing, they looked up the details of my machine in their microfilm archive and were very helpful in answering my questions, quoting prices, and so on.

A year or two ago, when I was replacing seals on the hydraulic cylinder, I spent some more time on the phone and exchanging emails with people at this company, https://dfpmach.com/ , which is in Letterworth, near Leicester. According to their web page, they have taken over J&S spares and have their microfilm archives and other materials. In fact, just out of curiosity, I'll write to them about the spindle bearings of my machine.

These may be closer to the requirement:- https://www.bearingboys.co.uk/Preci...-Ball-Bearing-Pair-25mm-x-52mm-x-15mm-87305-p

Very nice! But I would like to understand what "matched pair" means in this context. Do you know?
One other question, are the four bearings installed like this:
<< >>
where the direction of the symbol matches the direction of the angular contact bearing angle? Or are they installed like this?
<> <>
Or in some other way?

That's a brass/bronze cage, rather than the (probably) phenolic of the original, but it's only a 3,000rpm application, so that's not an issue. P2 would be even better, than P4, but good luck in finding some of those!

Let me ask about the grades of the bearings that Andmar supplies.

I couldn't find an equivalent to the E230, but I'm guessing that it will be another 72xx series bearing rather than an obsolete inch based one.

Do you have the dimensions?

I'm pretty sure that Andmar are just supplying standard matched pairs from the manufacturer, such as the example I listed. A CD pair instead of two CS singles.

I am ignorant. What is a "CD pair" and what are "CS singles"? Is it that when you buy one bearing at a time they are designated CS, but when you buy two matched ones together they are designated CD?

The manufacturers supply precision angular contact bearings in matched pairs as well as singles because that's how they are used. I can't guarantee that J&S used the equivalent of DU (flush ground) rather than DT (tandem), which is the beaing arrangement shown in my 1400 parts list.

FWIW, they people at Andmar said that they bearings in my heavy duty 540 spindle are "the same ones" as used in the 1400 spindle. But back to my ignorance, what's the difference between DT and DU?

A good bearing house should be able to supply appropriate bearings, although they may have to order them in, depends on what their normal market is. I've had success so far with online suppliers, although some searching is needed when looking for the higher grade products.

I am pretty sure that the situation in Germany is the same. I've bought bearings from a couple of online sources here. Both were quite helpful in proving to me that they were suppying genuine (in this case SKF) bearings rather than counterfeit ones.

Cheers,
Bruce

 

[Peter from Holland]

Since a long time already manufactorers tend to manufactor universal bearings which you can stack any way you like and get the stated pre-load
Matched pairs were selected in pairs of 2 or more in the given conformation to get the desired pre-load in the past Another way was to adjust the spacers between the bearings for the desired preload With Universal bearings spacers on inner and outer races should be exactly the same lenght
I suspect the 2 bushings you see in the exploded view are spacers One for the inner and one for the outer race The one for the outer race is then secured in the housing With universal bearings they should be equal in lenght

Manufactoring of those bearings is improved over times
So I would not look per se`what kind of bearings were in the machine when this machine was new but what is good practice nowadays

Peter

 

[mottrhed]

See pic of one apart. Preload is created by the spring pack, so that part is easy. Im not going to tell you that its a good idea to take apart a good spindle to re-grease the bearings, but if you want to its your machine.

The main risk is damaging the bearings during disassembly. Then all the things that come with rebuilding a precision spindle apply, just with the added challenge of used bearings.

If you do decide to replace the bearings, which Id recommend, they are readily available off the shelf from many manufacturers, just dont cheap out here.

 

[ballen]

See pic of one apart.

Thanks for the photos! Is this a J&S 1400 spindle? Or a J&S 540 "heavy duty" spindle? Have you got a cross section drawing? Any notes about the bearing types?

Cheers,
Bruce

 

[mottrhed]

Its a 540. No drawing unfortunately. Pair of 206 and a pair of 205 25deg steel big ball angular contact p4 light preload bearings. Pick your poison on the bearing mfg, Ive used a few with good results, then again I know what Im doing--I mean no offense by that at all--just that if a journal was out of spec I would know and would fix it, for example.. In the scheme of things its a real simple spindle, but still a spindle..

 

[ballen]

Thanks. Since you know what you're doing, I've got a few more questions.

Have you got a "standard" 540? Or a 540L? Or a more recent one like mine with a big electronics cabinet hanging off the side? I ask because I've never come across anyone else with one of these "heavy duty" 540 spindles.

If I have understood correctly, the the 205/206 bearings that you used are 25 degree contact angle. What does "big ball" mean in this context?

I ask this because Mark writes that 7205 (and presumably 7206) are the correct ones, which have a 15 degree contact angle. Did you base your bearing choice on what was in the spindle already?

FWIW, these would be the pairs of 15 degree angular contact bearings:

7205-CDUP4 Nachi Precision Ball Bearing Pair 25mm x 52mm x 15mm - BearingBoys

7205-CDUP4 Nachi Precision Ball Bearing Pair 25mm x 52mm x 15mm (Precision Bearings) at BearingBoys - �108.26 exc VAT. Brand: Nachi, Inside Dia (mm): 25, Outside Dia (mm): 52, Single or Pair: Pair, Width (mm): 15,

www.bearingboys.co.uk

7206-CDUP4 Nachi Precision Ball Bearing Pair 30mm x 62mm x 16mm - BearingBoys

7206-CDUP4 Nachi Precision Ball Bearing Pair 30mm x 62mm x 16mm (Precision Bearings) at BearingBoys - �116.58 exc VAT. Brand: Nachi, Inside Dia (mm): 30, Outside Dia (mm): 62, Single or Pair: Pair, Width (mm): 16,

www.bearingboys.co.uk

These (and presumably the corresponding 205/6 ones) cost less than half what the J&S spares places want for them.

No drawing... darn. Do you know/remember how the bearings are aligned?

Cheers,
Bruce

PS: mine is a low-hours machine with 36-year-old grease. Would you leave it alone or try to regrease it?

 

[Peter from Holland]

Oke Spring loaded Misinterprated the exploded view
If you intend to replace the bearings and the machine works fine just now I see no disadvantige in leaving it like it is till it starts to function worse
If you get it apart you have a good chance to check all tolerances How round is your housing for example


Peter

 

[mottrhed]

This is a 540L which looks identical at least in parts to the diagram you posted.

I cant answer about the rest of the machine, Im a spindle rebuilder, not the machine owner.

"big ball" is just a reference to the actual ball sizing, in this case (200 series) there may not be a small ball version but many times there is the choice between a big ball and small ball bearings in the same size bearing. Nothing to do with the contact angle.

In this application, 15deg or 25 isnt going to make much difference, I would see what was in the spindle and duplicate that, which is what we had done.

Those bearings are cheap because they are nachi, the oem is likely using something better.

Spring pack in the middle, no inner spacer, no nut holding the front bearings on the shaft, the only way these bearings can go is tandem back to back. << spring >>.
Obviously pay attention and document as you take it apart in case happens to be different.

My .02 would be to run the spindle as is until you start to hear/feel/see an issue starting with the bearings, then rebuild with new bearings at that time.

 

[michiganbuck]

QT Mott (My .02 would be to run the spindle as is until you start to hear/feel/see an issue starting with the bearings, then rebuild with new bearings at that time.)
I pretty much agree with Mott, but Bruce is a very sensible guy and likely he will make good the rebuild.
Pulling the bearings tight to seat is good..then I don't like very much preload on a cold new build.
Spot to spot is very important, you want a spindle to go lopty lope not wobble woble..

 

[Mark Rand]

Sorry for the late reply, I've been busy in the shed (workshop), which is an exercise in frustration, since I've got a broken ankle and crutches...
The drawing the the J&S 1400 parts list shows the bearings as >> spring <<. Technically, that's the stiffest possible arrangement, although I wonder just how much force they were designing for.

The 7205 came from a trawl through the Interweb looking for equivalents for the E225. As I said, I couldn't find the E230 (if you don't count bloody Mercedes' cars).

The DS DT DF DU DT designations refer to bearings selected/manufactured for
DS:- single, random selection.
DT, Tandem, correct preload with two bearings in the same direction.
DF, Facing, correct preload <>.
DB, Back-to-back, correct preload ><.
DU, Universal, correct preload however you mount pairs in contact with each other. The most common construction with modern tolerences.

CS and CU are/were Nachi designations for the same things.

As for "matched pair", It literally means a pair of bearngs selected to have eccentricities that are very similar to each other, so they can be used together (with reference to the 'high spot' indication markings on the inner and outer races, if present). These day's I suspect that you'll only see that attention to detail.

As for the tolerance grades, Wikipedia seems to have the comparison. Basically, P4+ABEC7 and P2=ABEC9. Basically, you're looking at 6µm or 2.5µm TIR respectively. After dressing the wheel, how good does that aspect have to be?

When I rebuilt my 1952 Hardinge HLV, I cleaned and inspected the headstock angular contact bearings and could see no visual wear. So I just regreased them and reinstalled them. If the J&S bearings are in the same condition, I'll probably do the same. Replacing 50 year old grease on good bearings is ok. If the bearings show any signs of wear, then they can be replaced with current ones that are as good or better than the originals. Most of the problem comes with grease that is no-longer lubricating the bearings.

 

[ballen]

This is a 540L which looks identical at least in parts to the diagram you posted. I cant answer about the rest of the machine, Im a spindle rebuilder, not the machine owner.

Ok, thanks for picking up the thread

"big ball" is just a reference to the actual ball sizing, in this case (200 series) there may not be a small ball version but many times there is the choice between a big ball and small ball bearings in the same size bearing. Nothing to do with the contact angle.

Got it

In this application, 15deg or 25 isnt going to make much difference, I would see what was in the spindle and duplicate that, which is what we had done.

That makes sense. So I either wait until the spindle is out and I need bearings, or I get someone at the J&S spares place to tell me what the bearings are. But since you had a 540 with a heavy duty spindle, I guess it's very likely to be the same. (Unless a previous owner swapped the bearings incorrectly on the one that you worked on, before it reached you.)

Those bearings are cheap because they are nachi, the oem is likely using something better.

Andmar told me that the ones they sell are P4, but not the brand. Given that this is how you make your living, what bearings would you use here?

Spring pack in the middle, no inner spacer, no nut holding the front bearings on the shaft, the only way these bearings can go is tandem back to back. << spring >>.
Obviously pay attention and document as you take it apart in case happens to be different.

Interesting. I looked at the drawing in post #11 of this thread, and it looks as if the bearings (just two, not four) are this way:

> spring <

Here is the drawing:

DIY Jones and Shipman 540 Spindle Refurbishment?

I have recently acquired a J&S 540 surface grinder. I have been stripping parts and replacing them bit by bit. I took the spindle off yesterday because it was running a bit rough (noise wise) when turned by hand. I took the wheel flange and pulleys off their respective tapers and I have found...

www.practicalmachinist.com

My .02 would be to run the spindle as is until you start to hear/feel/see an issue starting with the bearings, then rebuild with new bearings at that time.

Yeah, but every time the finish is not quite as good as I would like, I think "could that be the 36-year-old grease talking"?

Cheers,
Bruce

 

[mottrhed]

The arrows confuse people because there are a few companies that use them in reverse of the rest.

These bearings should be tandem back to back with the spring pack in the middle. Face to face will not work in this application as it would render the spring pack useless and would actually be separating the bearings.

 

[ballen]

Hi Mark,

My 1400 is 1976 vintage and I'm planning to rebuild it as soon as I can.

The E225 and E230 are now precision 7205 for the 225 and another size for the 230. I was expecting to use the modern equivalents if needed.

does any of your 1400 documentation show a cross section of the spindle? If so, could you please put a copy of that drawing or image into this thread? I think the 540 "heavy duty spindle" is likely the same, since the bearings are identical.

Regarding the bearings, I have not been able to find "205" or "206" angular contact bearings as described by mottrhed. The only angular contact bearings that I have found are 7205 and 7206. So I think E225 is 7205 and E230 is 7206. This also makes sense because the last two digits of "E225" and "E230" would then denote the bearing bore ID in mm: the 7205 has a 25mm ID and the 7206 has a 30mm ID

From more on-line reading I learned that 7205 and 7206 are available in different contact angles. For example SKF's designation system uses a letter in the first identifier group to indicate the angle. For single row bearings, it is:

A 30° contact angle
AB 20° contact angle
AC 25° contact angle
B 40° contact angle

The Nachi bearings that you linked to have a 15 degree contact angle. I don't know what importance this angle might have, though I would guess that it does influence the relative radial versus axial stiffness of the bearing.

Cheers,
Bruce

 

[Peter from Holland]

These people have a vast stock of bearings. NOS I suppose .
https://www.abf.store
When you log in you see prices

 

[ballen]

These bearings should be tandem back to back with the spring pack in the middle. Face to face will not work in this application as it would render the spring pack useless and would actually be separating the bearings.

I'm confused by the wording "tandem back to back". Here are three images that I've taken from the SKF web site.

Back to back:

Face to face:

Tandem:


Does "tandem back to back with spring pack" mean the following arrangement? I may have left a shoulder off the spindle shaft.



This diagram below, taken from a link in post #15, shows a spindle cross section for the 540 spindle with two bearings rather than four. These are "back to back". So if I have understood right "tandem back to back" has the interpretation shown just above.

Cheers,
Bruce

 

[ballen]

These people have a vast stock of bearings. NOS I suppose .
https://www.abf.store
When you log in you see prices

Unfortunately to log in and see prices, you need an account. They only give those to businesses, not to individuals.