Resources/Literature on gun barrel manufacturing?

[hoover00]

Hello,

I am just breaking into the world of gun barrel manufacturing and the entirety of its creation process. I just began employment within the firearms industry (doing IT work) but I have been entranced with every aspect of gun barrel manufacturing for the past five years. I have solid foundational knowledge of how barrels are created (from step 0 bar stock to the final process of surface finishing and chrome lining/nitride finishing). I understand the manufacturing flow but the more intricate minutiae are still somewhat vague. I am familiar with Cincinnati deep hole gun drills, Fritz-Werner CHF machines, AGFM CHF machines, TBT Tiefbohrtechnik ML300 gun drills, Kadia bore reamers (honing), Mori Seki DuraTurn2050s, Okuma OSP-P300LAs, Accu-Touch Gage readers (for verifying ID tolerances and rifling twist rates) etc etc. But I am struggling to find proper resources and/or literature for these machines let alone the esoteric processes affiliated. If any veterans have it in their hearts to point some new blood in the right direction to advancing my understanding & mastery in these subjects I will be forever grateful towards your generosity.

A sincere thanks in advance

 

[hoover00]

Hello,

I am just breaking into the world of gun barrel manufacturing and the entirety of its creation process. I just began employment within the firearms industry (doing IT work) but I have been entranced with every aspect of gun barrel manufacturing for the past five years. I have solid foundational knowledge of how barrels are created (from step 0 bar stock to the final process of surface finishing and chrome lining/nitride finishing). I understand the manufacturing flow but the more intricate minutiae are still somewhat vague. I am familiar with Cincinnati deep hole gun drills, Fritz-Werner CHF machines, AGFM CHF machines, TBT Tiefbohrtechnik ML300 gun drills, Kadia bore reamers (honing), Mori Seki DuraTurn2050s, Okuma OSP-P300LAs, Accu-Touch Gage readers (for verifying ID tolerances and rifling twist rates) etc etc. But I am struggling to find proper resources and/or literature for these machines let alone the esoteric processes affiliated. If any veterans have it in their hearts to point some new blood in the right direction to advancing my understanding & mastery in these subjects I will be forever grateful towards your generosity.

A sincere thanks in advance

 

[L Vanice]

You might benefit from learning about how it was done in the past. There is a fabulous 1969 film that shows the entire lock, stock and barrel-making process as done into the mid-19th century.

By the 1840's, E. Remington & Sons was a major supplier of forged wrought iron barrel blanks, sold to individual gunsmiths around the USA, who had to finish ream and rifle them. Remington replaced the wrought iron with cast steel (crucible steel) and continued to supply barrel blanks with the improved material. One of my first (bought in 1956) muzzle-loading rifles was made by E. W. Cook in Lockport, NY with a heavy target barrel marked Remington Cast Steel.

Larry

 

[SteveF]

You mean like this:

http://www.brokenguns.net/downloads/Gunsmithing%20&%20info/Barrels%20and%20Rifling/The%20Modern%20Rifle%20Barrel%20By%20Harold%20Hoffman%20(Action%20Book%20Publishers).pdf

There also looks like a bunch of good videos on YouTube.

 

[???]

The esoteric processes you are looking for are closely guarded trade secrets. I don't recall exactly which manufacturer said this but they went through tons of material perfecting their process. As anyone who has tried will attest just deep hole drilling a hole that deep and small which is straight is an art. There is a good reason those with deep pockets purchase hammer mills for high production and a stable process. The YouTube videos are a bit like drawing a jacket for projectiles you can count the draw stages but good luck finding the punch and die dimensions, as someone who has done this I would definitely not share the information and I'm pretty sure barrel makers are the same. There is also commercial in confidence and NDA's. Not trying to rain on your parade but there is no shortcut into the market unless you have deep pockets. Even then I doubt very much whether you could even buy a line ready to go, everyone is unfortunately tooling up for war and even second hand stuff is in huge demand and demands commensurate prices.

 

[hoover00]

You might benefit from learning about how it was done in the past. There is a fabulous 1969 film that shows the entire lock, stock and barrel-making process as done into the mid-19th century.

By the 1840's, E. Remington & Sons was a major supplier of forged wrought iron barrel blanks, sold to individual gunsmiths around the USA, who had to finish ream and rifle them. Remington replaced the wrought iron with cast steel (crucible steel) and continued to supply barrel blanks with the improved material. One of my first (bought in 1956) muzzle-loading rifles was made by E. W. Cook in Lockport, NY with a heavy target barrel marked Remington Cast Steel.

Larry

Thanks Larry, I can definitely appreciate the honored progenitor to the modern rifle barrel

 

[hoover00]

You mean like this:

http://www.brokenguns.net/downloads/Gunsmithing%20&%20info/Barrels%20and%20Rifling/The%20Modern%20Rifle%20Barrel%20By%20Harold%20Hoffman%20(Action%20Book%20Publishers).pdf

There also looks like a bunch of good videos on YouTube.

Haha yes ive definitley scoured the web (including youtube) for videos on the process. I've seen the CHF process completed at the Sabatti factory in Italy as well as brief glimpses at the process within the Steyr and Ruger plants. I appreciate you linking the book, looks like this one is geared towards a lathe style technique of barrel making. I'll give it a read, any information helps even if it isnt CHF specific.

 

[hoover00]

The esoteric processes you are looking for are closely guarded trade secrets. I don't recall exactly which manufacturer said this but they went through tons of material perfecting their process. As anyone who has tried will attest just deep hole drilling a hole that deep and small which is straight is an art. There is a good reason those with deep pockets purchase hammer mills for high production and a stable process. The YouTube videos are a bit like drawing a jacket for projectiles you can count the draw stages but good luck finding the punch and die dimensions, as someone who has done this I would definitely not share the information and I'm pretty sure barrel makers are the same. There is also commercial in confidence and NDA's. Not trying to rain on your parade but there is no shortcut into the market unless you have deep pockets. Even then I doubt very much whether you could even buy a line ready to go, everyone is unfortunately tooling up for war and even second hand stuff is in huge demand and demands commensurate prices.

While I understand where you're coming from, barrel making is something I will commit my professional career to (hence why I've got my foot in the door working for a gun manufacturing company). I can definitely see why much of the industry are still tightly kept trade secrets but what I'm trying to understand is how this information is passed down to people in confidence. Is it just by word of mouth? Are there books affiliated with this niche trade? Proprietary schematics and documentation? I've talked with many of the barrel makers on the shop floor already and they admit that much of their work is still trial and error. I could go into greater depth as I have accumulated quite a bit of knowledge on this subject but I think a PM would be more apropos (trade secrets and all lol).
Thanks again for the input

 

[???]

Regarding the passing down of information I think that most of the niche manufacturers don't write things down. As most on this forum will attest to small businesses are not particularly good at documentation unless forced into it by a customer.

 

[SIP6A]

I've got a set of books that were my dads. The Modern Gunsmith in two Volumes by James V. Howe. That will be a place to start on learning to make gun barrels. None of it can be done with a computer or 3D printer

 

[???]

I've got a set of books that were my dads. The Modern Gunsmith in two Volumes by James V. Howe. That will be a place to start on learning to make gun barrels. None of it can be done with a computer or 3D printer

Replace the sine bar machines with servo controlled rifling machines. This has been done successfully since at least the 80's.

 

[SIP6A]

You've got a lot to learn.

 

[standardparts]

Firearm barrels are like most products....The largest percentage manufactured are commodity grade products made to meet a price point and acceptable accuracy standard.
Then of course there are the niche/specialty rifle barrel shops where a reputation for offering extreme accuracy is the goal which attracts clients who are demand the best and are willing to pay for it.
So, for those who desire to enter into firearm barrel manufacturing the first point should be to determine which market you intend to produce product for---mass high volume production, or very low production time and material intensive and expensive barrels.
They are not the same--they require different levels of intellect, ability, and mindset. And just like most types of manufacturing and machining some can learn the theory, but are unable to apply theory to the reality of manufacturing and generate the profit to keep the lights on.

Some context(?): some info on the net posts that 20 million firearms are sold in the U.S. each year and of those 4 million are AR15 type. That's a lot of barrels.

 

[standardparts]

Replace the sine bar machines with servo controlled rifling machines. This has been done successfully since at least the 80's.

The P&W sine bar machines were/are considered the holy grail of rifle barrel shops...but if your feeding very hungry production lines and a shortage of gun barrel making experts:

 

[hoover00]

The P&W sine bar machines were/are considered the holy grail of rifle barrel shops...but if your feeding very hungry production lines and a shortage of gun barrel making experts:

I know some of the best barrel makers out there like H-S Precision are still using old sine bar machines that are over 100 years old. Sometimes the old stuff truly is the best stuff (at least from the perspective of precision... obviously there are more 'effective' methods for scaling & mass production)

 

[hoover00]

Firearm barrels are like most products....The largest percentage manufactured are commodity grade products made to meet a price point and acceptable accuracy standard.
Then of course there are the niche/specialty rifle barrel shops where a reputation for offering extreme accuracy is the goal which attracts clients who are demand the best and are willing to pay for it.
So, for those who desire to enter into firearm barrel manufacturing the first point should be to determine which market you intend to produce product for---mass high volume production, or very low production time and material intensive and expensive barrels.
They are not the same--they require different levels of intellect, ability, and mindset. And just like most types of manufacturing and machining some can learn the theory, but are unable to apply theory to the reality of manufacturing and generate the profit to keep the lights on.

Some context(?): some info on the net posts that 20 million firearms are sold in the U.S. each year and of those 4 million are AR15 type. That's a lot of barrels.

Yes, the only feasible way to break into this industry is to specialize and market your product accordingly

 

[???]

I know some of the best barrel makers out there like H-S Precision are still using old sine bar machines that are over 100 years old. Sometimes the old stuff truly is the best stuff (at least from the perspective of precision... obviously there are more 'effective' methods for scaling & mass production)

They are not the most precise. The industry is very conservative. I worked for a steering manufacturer where the founder came out of the aerospace industry. Cams all the way till shown that servos do the job as precisely. Hammer mills make a barrel as accurate as any buttoned or cut rifle barrel. Don't confuse habit with efficiency or even precision. A cut rifle sine bar machine will give versatility with regards to twist rate etc. Buttons increase throughput and hammer forging increases it exponentially. Cost is a big decider. My suggestion would be to purchase the equipment that will enable you to manufacture what you need so that you can experiment. Mill, lathe, surface grinder. Start on pistol barrels they are shorter and as Boots Obermeyer said " when barrel makers meet they discuss drilling and reaming". Less depth is always easier. Also less costly when you make the inevitable mistake.

 

[deltaenterprizes]

Shilen Barrels has an open house in the spring.
They demonstrate their manufacturing process and have lunch.
Last time I was there they were using WW2 Pratt & Whitney rifling machines.
It has been a while and they may have upgraded since then.
They are located in Ennis Texas a little south of Dallas.

 

[akajun]

I know some of the best barrel makers out there like H-S Precision are still using old sine bar machines that are over 100 years old. Sometimes the old stuff truly is the best stuff (at least from the perspective of precision... obviously there are more 'effective' methods for scaling & mass production)

I wouldn’t call HS precision one of the best barrel makers
I’ve been to shilen
They use an old p&w drill to make the hole
Then ream on modified lathes
Then hone
Then pull a button on an old handmade sinebar machine
Then cast a lap and hand lap

Lots of benchrest and smallbore records set with these barrels

KriegerI understand uses old gun drills and cut rifling machines
Lots of highpower and long range records

Bart lien I understand uses new/ modern cnc machinery for gun drilling and cut riffling
Again lots of records set

 

[???]

the only feasible way to break into this industry is to specialize and market your product accordingly

Make a barrel that wins a major competition and everyone will be lining up to buy your barrels. I made sights for the teams and individuals that won every single gold medal except U21 individual at the LRWC in 2019 at Trentham in NZ. They have subsequently been used to win most major Commonwealth competitions. Everyone thinks if they buy one they will win. Shooting has a herd mentality with not much outside the norm thinking.