Resurfacing Aluminum Cylinder Heads on a Bport Mill? 50Ra surface?

[Laverda]

I surface heads on my metal shaper. It makes them nice and flat and you start the machine and can walk away while it does all the work by itself.

If I was in this type of business surfacing head on a daily business a metal shaper it what I would buy. The bonus is they can do other work if your not in a hurry!

 

[EmGo]

If I was in this type of business surfacing head on a daily business a metal shaper it what I would buy. The bonus is they can do other work if your not in a hurry!

Now that you mention it, didn't someone here, maybe in Oregon, have a really clean cnc retrofitted small planer they wanted to get rid of ? Photos looked super and the price was lower than low, maybe just "rescue it" ?

Agree with you that planers make flat. Even up to the end, American Tool used them for machining the areas where the hardened and ground ways attached, because they did a good job of that type work.

 

[CalG]

A kwick look at images on the net suggests "modern" head and block resurfacing machine tools amounts to a bed mill with some specialized fixturing.

The "best way" discussion could go on forever.

 

[AlfaGTA]

A shaper might make the surface flat...But never seen a shaped surface that did not have noticeable grooves and ridges from the single point tool.....
Don't think a modern head gasket would tolerate such texture in the finish...

Cheers Ross

 

[Laverda]

A shaper might make the surface flat...But never seen a shaped surface that did not have noticeable grooves and ridges from the single point tool.....
Don't think a modern head gasket would tolerate such texture in the finish...

Cheers Ross

If the shaper tool is ground properly, it far surpasses any surface finish either my vertical or horizontal mill can produce. If your using a tool ground to be used in a lathe it will definitely make grooves in the part. You don't want a tool with a point on it and the rake also needs to be different. Now the same shaper tool used in a lathe would produce a horrible finish do to chatter.

Many years ago when I got my shaper and after much trial and error, I was very surprised what it was capable of doing.

Machines designed specifically for head surfacing are I am sure much faster doing the job but a shaper does it just as well , but much, much slower.

 

[slowmotion]

"the machine shops that still exist went upscale doing high performance or exotic"
This is pretty much the case, other than diesel specific shops. When I started in the business 43 years ago, it was whatever came in the door. Now all I do is performance or restoration. This is mostly due to my keeping up with the technology. Most professional machinists are surprised to learn that auto machine shops have gone to 4 axis CNC mills to do blocks.

Someone mentioned seeing lots of Van Norman surfacers for sale. That's because they were marginal when they were made back in the 60's. Useless for aluminum or any head that is not square, as all they do is clamp the head from the sides.

Yes, modern surfacers are bed mill style. Very rigid with 14" milling heads that are indeed tiltable.

 

[dian]

i have not read the whole thread, but 50 ra (200 rz) is extremely rough. if thats whats needed it going to be hard to achieve on a mill on aluminum, youll have to roughen it up. not hard to do with sanding. 5 ra (n3-n4) is where you stop feeling the surface with finger nails.

btw, the mill might rock, but the heads have tolerances too (probably several thou).

 

[slowmotion]

The required Ra varies between manufacturers but 10-40 is the common range. 50 indeed does feel very rough, way past what I consider acceptable. Both my CNC and head surfacer give a 12 Ra with a single round PCD insert. Here is a perfect example of an old carbide machine trying to surface aluminum. Both block and head tested at this number. Needless to say it leaked coolant everywhere.

 

[cg285]

this company makes the fixture and flycutter for doing heads on a vertical mill

CYLINDER HEAD FIXTURE w/ FLYCUTTER & STUB ARBOR OR R-8 | Precision Measurement Supply

 

[cg285]

my machine is like this, different manufacturer. the only problem with alum would be with alum the piece has to be lifted off before stopping the machine

Kwik Way Model 870 Belt Resurfacer | Jamison Equipment

 

[slowmotion]

No offense, but a belt surfacer has no right to surface a cylinder head. I've seen countless examples of failures from these machines.

The linked fixture would work great for Chevy's, if that's all you are doing. But very few heads today could be mounted that way, relying on a flat intake surface with accessible bolt holes.

This is a pic of a head fixture my now retired friend has made and sold for years. It lays on a piece of UHMW fixed to the table and it air floats on that. Makes for quick centering on a guide for seat machining.
The 2nd pic is his R8 milling head, 10", with both CBN and PCD inserts. A dial indicator mounts on it to indicate the head in. Some 30 are in use and he has never once sold a replacement part. He has also outfitted the the milling head for CAT40 and sold them to CNC shops. Apologies if this sounds like a commercial, but it kinda is. He has 2 left and they are in my shop.

 

[cg285]

No offense, but a belt surfacer has no right to surface a cylinder head. I've seen countless examples of failures from these machines.

i must be extremely lucky. 35 years without a failure. only did 2 alum heads tho
i first saw one in a large cyl head rebuilding company. it was all they used.

 

[GregSY]

A belt sander would work wonderfully on a cast iron, low compression tractor engine's head. It all depends on how fussy the engine is.

That BP R8 milling head looks like it would work....if you took very light cuts. It's aluminum and the cutter is far from the center of the spindle....I'd rather see something with a lot of weight to help dampen the upset of the interrupted cut. And on a spindle heavier than R8.

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

Slowmotion, I sent you a PM.

GregSY, I cannot speak about all surfacing machines, but my WVN SM4000 did have a provision for tilting the head a little, maybe 5 degrees max, not 90 like a BP. According to manual the grinding head was to be tilted just enough that it cut on leading edge and not trailing edge. Arguing why is above my pay grade, I set it up per the manual, nobody ever complained.

 

[EmGo]

This is a longshot, but I had an ExCellO (I think) grinder that was a Norton base modified to have a vertical spindle. They make bigger ones but this was about 8 x 18 ? Didn't take up much space at all, I have occasionally seen them for sale cheap. Would be fast and do a good job.

 

[Servicar rider]

KwikWay built several models of tilting tables for their seat and guide machines that can be mounted to a mill. I have one mounted to a Gorton Mastermill that I've made additional tooling so I can not only resurface heads but do seat and guide work, and drill out broken bolts etc?

 

[alphonso]

The 2nd pic is his R8 milling head, 10", with both CBN and PCD inserts. A dial indicator mounts on it to indicate the head in. Some 30 are in use and he has never once sold a replacement part. He has also outfitted the the milling head for CAT40 and sold them to CNC shops. Apologies if this sounds like a commercial, but it kinda is. He has 2 left and they are in my shop.

View attachment 335404View attachment 335405

Price for one of these heads?

 

[slowmotion]

Price for one of these heads?

My friend has only one milling head left that he will sell, he has 2 more but would like to keep them to sell with the 2 fixtures he has left. It is $1,250 but also is tentatively spoken for. I will know some time next week whether or not it is still available.

 

[dalmatiangirl61]

My friend has only one milling head left that he will sell, he has 2 more but would like to keep them to sell with the 2 fixtures he has left. It is $1,250 but also is tentatively spoken for. I will know some time next week whether or not it is still available.

I spoke with friend this morning, she will be calling you on Tuesday.