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Resurrecting 1960 10EE with 460V Sabina drive

charlieman22

Aluminum
Joined
May 4, 2021
Hi all,
Have coveted a 10EE - and one has come available within driving distance.
It's been pretty well used... but it's been "rebuilt" along the way (what ever that may mean), and the asking price is less than $3K.
Would be used in my garage for general fabrication and 2stroke tuning.
Hobby level user.

Have done some reading to try and get up to speed.
Hoping to get some insights here - particularly on the drive - which has been updated.

Here are some details.
- 1960 model - came with taper attachment but now gone.
- Carriage moves smoothly and ways show little wear - though there are some ugly marks on one of the flats that appear to be from the carriage running over something. Looks like the wipers did their job though - damage is on a non weight bearing area? (pics below).
- Cross slide has nearly 3/4 turn of back lash - that will drive me crazy - so it would need to be addressed.
- No run out to speak of on spindle - thought I had filmed - but apparently you have to hit go on the camera to make it work...
- Some tooling - but it's missing its taper attachment and there is no collet chuck or steady rest - so no gold mine here.
- Paint - looks hard used.
- *All handles and functions seem to operate - except TPI lock out which I couldn't get to disengage. The machine itself feels smooth and powerful.
- Back gear, forward, reverse, spindle dynamic braking (I think its referred to that) all seem to work smoothly. Some video below.

So the machine looks well used, but seems to function pretty nicely across the board. Here are a couple things I was hoping to get some opinions/insights on:

1. Looks to have been updated with 3 phase Sabina system. Operates much more quietly than expected. However - it uses a rotary converter that comes with the purchase. What's the word on these systems - and is it the case that it won't work with a VFD?
2. I was unable to unlock the TPI adjustment dial. You can see in the picture and video that the handle for locking has the knob broken off. Not sure if I was doing something wrong - found ************************ and inserted it into the handle, but couldn't actuate any type of release to move it = no way to turn the TPI adjustment. How do these operate?
3. Had a tag on it showing it had been "rebuilt" in 1972. That seems too early for the Sabina controls though? It may account for how clean the inside of the machine looked, and the otherwise smooth operation of the controls.
4. Finally - have my eye on a 1944 round dial model as well - are there any tradeoffs I should be aware of that make one more desirable than the other?

Thanks for taking the time to look - all feedback welcome.

Apologies for any pictures doubling/spun.
Wrestled with it but could not delete/alter


Video of it running here: https://youtu.be/TgQ83p3KKxo
And here in back gear: https://youtu.be/oPm-2celdEw

Screen Shot 2021-08-03 at 8.23.51 AM.jpgScreen Shot 2021-08-03 at 8.24.12 AM.jpgScreen Shot 2021-08-03 at 8.24.53 AM.jpgIMG_3476.jpgIMG_3472.jpgScreen Shot 2021-08-03 at 8.23.51 AM.jpgScreen Shot 2021-08-03 at 8.24.12 AM.jpgScreen Shot 2021-08-03 at 8.24.53 AM.jpgIMG_3476.jpgIMG_3472.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
under $3k seems like a good deal to me. I would buy it.
The broken knob has to be pulled out to make the lever release. So you pull on the knob and that disengages the lever. There is a tapered pin that holds that lever on its shaft. I think
There also may be a set screw on the very bottom of the lever that needs to be loosened. You may be able remove the lever to get at the broken piece and weld the knob back together.
 
Sounds like a good deal, a 10EE and roto phase for less than 3 grand.
Better jump on it before it's gone.
Does the tooling come with it ?

Hal
 
under $3k seems like a good deal to me. I would buy it.
The broken knob has to be pulled out to make the lever release. So you pull on the knob and that disengages the lever. There is a tapered pin that holds that lever on its shaft. I think
There also may be a set screw on the very bottom of the lever that needs to be loosened. You may be able remove the lever to get at the broken piece and weld the knob back together.
. Thanks! Ok - I saw the brass rod plunger in the handle - but didnt have a tool to pull it up with/ didn't want to do any damage with my limited knowledge.

First: Thank you for those videos!
Second: Grab it!
Sabina built good gear . for their era.
"Obsolete is not the same as useless." ...or so I try to keep my wife convinced!
That it is still in working order and runs off an RPC is a big plus.
No immediate emergency need to alter that.
Photos of the final drive motor, please. Both ends.
Thanks. Was bracing for a run for your life response on the 3 phase rotary. Just lack the experience to know. Very helpful. Figured the videos would give a better sense - and saw your comment on the bouncing tach. I agree - it seems smooth in actual operation regarding RPM change - but the tach instrument itself seems to get "thrown" past the number - and bounces back to the right speed.IMG_3487 4.jpgIMG_3514 2.jpg

Sounds like a good deal, a 10EE and roto phase for less than 3 grand.
Better jump on it before it's gone.
Does the tooling come with it ?
. There are about 20 tool holders, and a handful of other items. Pic below. The two big missing ones are the steady rest and taper attachment.
IMG_3465 2.jpg IMG_3466 3.jpg IMG_3485.jpgIMG_3487 4.jpg
 
With all the tooling and roto phase, it sounds like a great deal. The toolholders are around $10.00 each.
Monarch sometimes uses 2 set screws in on hole, acting like a jam nut.

Hal
 
Thanks thermite.
Do my best to treat stuff like I'd like it to be treated.
Owner of the machine wasn't actually there.
After speaking on the phone - he was good enough to have a neighbor let me in while he travels - so I was pretty keen to do no harm...

ELSE.. buy a MASS-produced "packaged" DC Drive. Because it is faster and cheaper to do it that way.
Can you give me an example of one of these?
 
Thanks Hal. Agreed. Don't mind the beat up paint. Prior industrial owner was an aeronautics company - fairly famous one. Suspect they would have been the ones to have had it "rebuilt" in 1972.

Can anyone help identify what era the updated Sabina controls are from? Those appear more 1980's to my eye than '72IMG_3494 2.jpgIMG_3472.jpg
 
Did wonder a bit about the pictures of both ends...
Had not even considered shooting a picture of the back of the motor when I was inspecting.
Now makes more sense.

Still drinking from the hydrant - but depth of understanding is on steep climb.
Tacho gives feedback loop - and keeps DC motor at constant output even under load.
Gold standard for solid state retrofit.

Thanks for the links.
-CM
 
Im concerned about the 3/4 turn of backlash in cross-slide.

The cross-screw+ nut is north of $1k from Monarch Sidney and that was 5 years ago. Possibly other sources are out there.

The lathe can be run as-is but that particular accrual of backlash/lost motion has caused me more turning problems than all others I can think of.

I think that broken lever is for the "tumbler" which lets you take 1 gear out of sync that allows the others to be sync'd manually and then you jog the spindle abit while putting very light pressure on the lever and it all drops into mesh ready to work. Without that enabled it would be a tricky & slow path of constantly moving the spindle by hand.
 
Well - this is going to be an interesting post... (see below)

Im concerned about the 3/4 turn of backlash in cross-slide.

The cross-screw+ nut is north of $1k from Monarch Sidney and that was 5 years ago. Possibly other sources are out there.

The lathe can be run as-is but that particular accrual of backlash/lost motion has caused me more turning problems than all others I can think of.

I think that broken lever is for the "tumbler" which lets you take 1 gear out of sync that allows the others to be sync'd manually and then you jog the spindle abit while putting very light pressure on the lever and it all drops into mesh ready to work. Without that enabled it would be a tricky & slow path of constantly moving the spindle by hand.
Thanks for weighing in! I am seeing the nut being offered on Ebay for about $100 - but not sure about the screw - so the combination may still be an expensive fix. That backlash does look like a pain in the arse for operation - and will be something I will want to address. Don't mind a little blood and sweat - though I would likely source the repair parts rather than try and fabricate.

Hmm. Ive seen video of someone operating a similar machine - where that handle was required to be lowered prior to adjusting the nob on the square dial itself for TPI. Are you saying something different? (When I attempted to adjust that nob - it was locked - suggesting that the broken handle was in fact the locking mechanism).

Don't do anything rash.

Just yet!
. You mean like buy a second machine at the same time I buy this one having never owned a 10EE?
I had already made an offer on a round dial - and was waiting to get information on it when the square dial popped back up. It's complicated... However - there is a round dial (apple of my eye) for a very enticing price of $3500. 1944. Fully tooled - steady rest, collet chuck, 3 and 4 jaw chuck, taper attachment. Some kind of power conversion to 220 single phase using original motor - but I haven't been able to ascertain exactly what. Price was right - so I basically just said yes. No - Im not kidding... These things are addictive. 039C9A4C-D3CD-49BA-A42D-9848948639B2.jpg05D99CD7-985B-4E65-99F4-777AB962DD8A.jpg.

Anyone want to play the here is what I see - here is what to look for - game with this one as well?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
I've seen and heard it run - on FaceTime. It was silent in reverse. I can hear a little whine in forward - but no roar or clicking. Owner says it is the original DC motor - but of course - that remains to be confirmed. Waiting on pictures of innards. Will post.

Ways are good and handles move nicely. Having hunted for these - it seemed like suddenly it was raining good deals. Tooling that comes with this one is nice and complete. Tough to say no.
 
It COULD be.. a "good" conversion. With the current moderator here actively hostile to anything newer or more complicated than elemental Iron, Copper, and Carbon, and pre-1891 at that? Serious discussion of those has to take place clandestinely .. "out of public sight!"

:D

But even if sub-optimal?
...
[emphasis added]

No Bill, what I'm actively hostile to is you taking over every thread that has anything to do with controls and dominating the discussion, stamping out anything that's slightly at odds with your pedagogy. That ends today.

I have no problem with DC or VFD drive conversions. I do have a problem with YOU forcing YOUR Parker drive conversion into every nook and cranny you can find.

Thread locked for 24 hours due to thread hogging. My apologies to the original poster.

Cal
 
Update:
Had a chance to speak with the square dial owner, and Sabina.
First - the owner:
- Has adjusted price for me and settled on $2800, includes tools and some raw turning stock to use. Does not include the rotary converter. Feel I've done well.
- That may align well in the end. Spoke with Sabina. Before I post on their specifics - want to mention - they were terrific on the phone with me. Did not give me attitude or snobbery, knowing I was looking at a used piece of their equipment. There comments:
1. Cost today for that system is $7500. Model is called the 2450. They still support.
2. Only ones that could afford it back in the day were mostly aerospace guys.
3. Systems are robust and the only failure point they see is: occasionally they will get a customer that has issues with weird behavior due to capacitors on the regulator's board going bad. Usually in high heat environments. They will rebuild the board for $500.
4. Turns out their system uses a tacho on the back of the motor. Frankly - it seems like a very nice system for my needs. It ran exceptionally well forward/reverse/ very low RPM/ Max RPM - when I tested. No qualms.
5. Not fans of using rotary converters with their system. Prefer use of a solid state 3phase converter.

Which leads me here. Looks like I will need to invest in some form of 3 phase conversion. The question: is there a well respected/reasonably priced unit that would do a nice job powering the machine? (Sabina sells one for $1500...)
 
...
One can only hope there will be fewer weirdly irrelevant personality barriers thrown up, going forward..
...
If you continue to get personal, I'm going to start deleting everything you post. See forum rule #1.

Thread locked for 24 hours.

Monarch Forum Moderator
 
Well - she's home.
Made a rolling frame from a set of casters - levered it up on blocks - put the wheels on - then used a power winch to pull it up on to the trailer.

Seller had plenty of metal and plastic stock - which he threw in.
I brought my compressor and a oversized pallet jack.
Used neither.
By the time I unloaded/reloaded those, the 4x6s, the machine, the tools, the stock, the wheel frame... my ass was officially kicked.
Seller - 85 year old man - then insisted I join them for dinner.
Don't think I remembered to raise my head between bites.
(chicken and potato stew if you were wondering. Delicious).

In the end - I didn't buy the rotary power supply from seller.
I'll go back to Sabina and find out about the solid state one.
* Is anyone else aware of a quality/well priced single to three phase 220 up converter?

Spent afternoon unloading and cleaning.
Did you guys know there's a coolant trough under that plate in the center? 🙂
Of course - no strainer - filled with 30 years of swarf, old coolant and oil.
That was a nasty job.
Looks like there is a coolant pump. Were these standard on all models?

One comment/question.
I am always amazed that the bodies of these old cast machines don't have drain holes in their low points/ with a plug.
It's not like anyone could be too worried about a few drips making it to the floor?
Any reason not to drill a hole in the bottom to allow liquids to get out - so I can properly wash this thing down (covering the electronics of course)?
 

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Got it unloaded and in the garage.
Then for sport - reloaded it on the trailer.
Just too damn grubby.
Going to drive it out to the street and pressure wash.
I will cover the Wiad electronics and motor with garbage bags.
Haven't decided what to do about headstock area - perhaps I will deal with that with a brush and spray bottle.

Can't comment. Both of mine are "Round Dial" .. have large open Azures in the "floor" of the motor compartment (under the motor plate) and in the MG "garage" as well.

Ah - that would explain the casting design on mine.
The bottom is closed - but they kept the "azures" shapes as a thinner portion.
Unfortunately - that left pockets for oil and water to collect should it get in there.

Speaking of round dial - I got the pictures I was waiting for on the second machine.
I am still wrestling to find a good shipping option from the East coast - but have some more stones to flip.

The machine is running and working - and has for the past decade.
The electronics scare me a bit though.
They are old.
Large frame motor.
No tubes - think I see "contactors".

Anyone want to weigh in on what they see and anythings to watch out for?
Seller says when he got the machine - the contractors would fail if he didnt hold it with his feet!
So he cleaned them and adjusted the springs - and has been trouble free since.
No reason to doubt him on this.
Bridge rectifier is the one that looks like a VW bug engine on the back.
 

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Pressure washer will get rust causing water in all the places you can not get it out of. There are MANY threads on cleaning machines, most involve some elbow grease. A search ought to find some.
 
Got it unloaded and in the garage.
Then for sport - reloaded it on the trailer.
Just too damn grubby.
Going to drive it out to the street and pressure wash. ...
I definitely would not pressure wash it. Very bad idea.

Speaking of round dial - I got the pictures I was waiting for on the second machine.
I am still wrestling to find a good shipping option from the East coast - but have some more stones to flip.

The machine is running and working - and has for the past decade.
The electronics scare me a bit though.
They are old.
Large frame motor.
No tubes - think I see "contactors".

Anyone want to weigh in on what they see and anythings to watch out for?
Seller says when he got the machine - the contractors would fail if he didnt hold it with his feet!
So he cleaned them and adjusted the springs - and has been trouble free since.
No reason to doubt him on this.
Bridge rectifier is the one that looks like a VW bug engine on the back.
If those photos are of the round-dial, that is not the original drive. I would pass on that one unless the tooling, price, etc., was VERY attractive. You may be in for a drive replacement if you go for that machine. I think you need a lot more information on the drive.

Cal
 








 
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