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Resurrecting 1960 10EE with 460V Sabina drive

I will find the ones I have and compare tomorrow or tues. That should be enough info to see if mine are close enough to trim if needed....
I thought they were bent like yours but some were just distorted from being packed in a bag...It looks like the ons I have are way to big. They are also just a simple L shape the long leg is 2.64 long and .480 wide and the short leg is1.50 long and .375 wide, the thickness is .300 and will easily compress to .250 or even .225 if pushed, The legs will bend if pushed so it could make the shape you need if the thickness is right. It would take some cutting with a razor blade to even be able to try them. I can send you a few for the postage if you like but it may be more work than its worth...
If you want a few to try for the postage let me know....
 

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I used a 1/2” abrasive “Cratex” stick mounted in an ER collet and let the pattern run - practicing first on a scrap.

I have a fuzzy memory of guys using a wood dowel in a drill press to make similar patterns with a drill press for dash boards on so hot rods... You may try the wood dowel, I dont remember if some sort of lapping compound was also used.
 
I have a fuzzy memory of guys using a wood dowel in a drill press to make similar patterns with a drill press for dash boards on so hot rods... You may try the wood dowel, I dont remember if some sort of lapping compound was also used.
cratex stick is considered the new millennium dowel....
 
Thanks guys. Appreciate it.

Rob - agreed - juice probably not worth the squeeze - but I sure do appreciate you offering/digging them out and measuring.

I picked up the cratex stick trick off the internet.
Was going to go with a dowel - but having used the cratex now - glad I opted for them. Think it made it easier to get a good result.

They are basically a rubber compound acting as a sub straight to hold some abrasive.
The rubber gives them some flex - and I think that helps keep them in contact as they wear.
I just kept bumping the knee a hair higher after each row.

Plan to test a little paint to see how I like the results & color.
Will post up as I get there.
 
Some pretty pics for your weekend, and a question about oil leaking.

First - the pretty pics & background.

Elsewhere, I have re-animated an 80s cnc knee mill with a modern controller and software.
Answered an add: “you can have my mill. Lost its parameters. if you have a trailer and can get it out of here it’s yours”…. How could I say no?

Never operated CAD, wired a computer, or dealt with 3 phase electronics - so steep learning curve.
Managed to get it up and running.
This lathe rebuild project is forcing my hand/ helping me grow skills with the CNC machine - so enjoying the challenge.

So plenty of surfacing and pattern making operations have lead me here.

Obviously I want to make the lathe look nice, but part of the game here is to create a finish that doesn’t disintegrate.

On this front, I’m opting for both the textured surface, and some polished metal areas, in the working areas - rather than paint.

Here is the carriage:
1698466536874.jpeg
The top surfaces are engine turned.
I’ve sanded down the castings on the inner arms and polished.
I think this will be more serviceable than paint once in use.

Here’s a close up:
1698466830556.jpeg
Overall - pleased with the outcome. Will see how I like it when fully assembled.
Polish should be easy enough to touch up if I’m really bothered (which I probably won’t be).

Now the oil question:
Noticed today that of the three reservoirs on my machine, the middle one has raised - while the front (spindle) and back have both drained.
Apparently into the middle reservoir.
You can see it if you zoom in.
1698467029552.jpeg

The machine however has not been used.
Is it normal for the front and rear to drain to the middle without any use?

Thanks.
-CM
 
Now the oil question:
Noticed today that of the three reservoirs on my machine, the middle one has raised - while the front (spindle) and back have both drained.
Apparently into the middle reservoir.
...
The machine however has not been used.
Is it normal for the front and rear to drain to the middle without any use?

Thanks.
-CM
It's not "normal", but a fairly common problem on older 10EEs. There are overflow drain passages in the headstock casting for both the front and rear spindle reservoirs. They lead from the bearing retainers to the center reservoir. It could be a gasket problem. Or oil might be seeping past the bushings on the inner ends. Don't worry too much about it. If you have occasion to pull the spindle, deal with it then.
 
Thanks Cal.

I know it’s a much discussed subject and I’ve read on both round and square dials the various threads.

Assumed overflow passages in the past, but the lathe is both level and non operational, so likely not the culprits after all.

Can you clarify the possible “gasket” leak? I don’t believe there are any type of seals on the early 60s square dial bearings at the spindle shaft.
 
The oil return passages use channels that are part of the bearing retainer rings (and that varies with the year, etc.). If there's something wrong with the gaskets, oil might be able to directly enter the passages. I don't think it's very likely that both gaskets would have such a problem, but possible.

There are labyrinth seals on either end, but no rubber lip seals, like you might see around shafts in other applications.

On the rear bearing, the right end of the reservoir is formed by the end of Reverse Gear Bushing (EE-2888 for square-dials) shown highlighted in yellow:

MONARCH_EE-4-35_HEADSTOCK rear bearing.png
On an earlier drawing, the clearance between the OD of the bushing and headstock casting could be as much as 0.0006". That suggests that some sort of sealant was used to keep oil from leaking past the bushing. I know that my '43 round-dial didn't have a rear bearing leak until I made the mistake of leaving kerosene sitting in the reservoir for several days. Now I have to fill the reservoir every time I use it. Perhaps the kerosene dissolved whatever sealant the factory used when the bushing was installed?
 
Thank you Cal - good explanation/ background I was looking for.
Your drawing is now familiar from past reads.
Perhaps the kerosene dissolved whatever sealant the factory used when the bushing was installed?
This could likely be what happened to mine as well - assuming they used a sealant.

Annoyance to have to refill the bearings so frequently... though amount is small.
Perhaps many have the issue.
Seams like a splash catch tray in the center that fed the rear and front reservoirs wouldn't be a bad idea to cycle the fluid.

When back at the shop - I will scope the front and reservoirs again as I did here:

The level of the oil should tell me what's leaking.
I suspect its between the OD and the head casting - see pics below.
A second look with the scope should show current resting level of oil - and identify the culprit.
Below some screen shots from after I had cleaned the reservoirs out.

Front reservoir scope shot:
Screenshot 2023-10-28 at 4.23.55 PM.png
Scope of rear reservoir
Screenshot 2023-10-28 at 4.25.57 PM.png
Your
 
Under normal circumstances the amount of oil that drains out of the overflow is minimal. Years back (probably over 10) someone here built up an elaborate pump system to return oil to the rear reservoir, but I don't recommend that. If it really bothers you, my advice is to pull the spindle, reseal the rear bushing and inspect the oil return channels.

On the front bearing end, part of the labyrinth seal forms the end of the reservoir. Monarch ultimately added an O-ring to the part in about 1965, with the single reservoir headstock design.
 
My '56 will leak down the front bearing reservoir in a couple of weeks - unless I clock the D1-3 spring face to have the 2 position at the top. Lasts forever in that position (at least a month, anyway). Maybe try leaving the spindle clocked at different positions to see if one leaks less than others?
 
Maybe try leaving the spindle clocked at different positions to see if one leaks less than others?
Thanks. Wouldn't have even considered that.
For a laugh - I put my scope back in the front reservoir to see where it drains to.
With reflections off the existing fluid - its kind of hard to determine - but clearly has leaked down at a minimum to the bottom of the bearing race where it goes through the headstock casting.

Perhaps instead its leaking though the front.
Do you suspect yours is finding a way out the front?

Below a still image. Gray striated portion is the bearing outer race.
Creme white is the headstock housing.
Shot with scope shoved in from site glass opening on front reservoir.
IMG_5137.jpg
 
Good heads up.
I’ll clean up both the exits (one behind chuck, one into sump area) and refill to see if I’m getting front end leakage.
May do.

Could be some combo where the rear is leaking into the middle reservoir.
 
Good heads up.
I’ll clean up both the exits (one behind chuck, one into sump area) and refill to see if I’m getting front end leakage.
May do.

Could be some combo where the rear is leaking into the middle reservoir.

On mine the rear bearing sump leaks into the center sump as well, it's just a lot slower than the front.

I could fix it but really the effort isn't worth the $0.25 savings per month in spindle oil.
 
I don’t see it so differently, however, I do have some concern about oil leaking externally, lifting the paint I’m working so hard to prep for…

Thanks for the perspective. Conversation is a healthy one.
Time to look a little more closely at where it’s leaking and determine if it’s worth addressing.
 
Some eye candy for the 4 of you actually watching my halting progress.
:-)

First - a bit about the paint.
I’m not expert - so I’ve leaned on YouTube and asked questions at a PPG supply shop.

As noted previously, I’ve opted to “un paint” some surfaces that are high wear.
I’ve also chosen single stage paint.

My thinking - I’d like it to hold up well, and be easy to touch up.
To make the unpainted surfaces near the working area look nice, I’ve sanded the texture out of the castings using a flap wheel and da sander with ever finer grits.
Didn’t take much.
Some surfaces then got “engine turning” texture to make them look nice and hide scratches.

My idea is to “capture” the polished/ turned surfaces between paint - and vice versa - to set them off.

Here is the compound.
EAC7F52C-0602-42D0-92F6-DDED07704E32.jpeg

I thought it might be nice to try it on the apron also - with the housings painted to offset. This has the practical advantage of allowing removal and servicing (should I need or care to) without ruining a paint seam (no paint to ruin…)

Here are the components before assembly.

F553E875-FBF2-4AB3-AF31-CE2215B34996.jpeg

I’ve tried to avoid using “bondo” because 1. I’m not very good at it and 2. I want to have as tough a surface as I can. I really don’t mind some texture on certain areas and when I want high gloss, I just sand the castings smooth before paint.

So most of these parts you see here have no filler.

To give them a nice finish, I then used a hybrid epoxy/polyester primer.
The classic car guys swear by this stuff, VP 2050. It’s a sandable high build epoxy. A light scuff after coating gives a respectable finish.

5FF4B5EB-0E13-4588-B3E0-E54DEFD9A838.jpeg

For the tail stock, which I consider a show piece, I did use some filler. I selected rage ultra - for its good spreading characteristics. I sanded the casting, primed with 2050, and then used just a little of the rage on the flat surfaces. Here I “blocked them out” using some 400 grit. Aside from a few dust nibs I’ll have to clean up, it came out nicely with not much work!
888131DF-244E-4C31-9100-35F032E2BF18.jpeg

Finally - in an attempt to make the parts more durable for assembly, I used silicone plugs loosely fit so I got a tapering of the paint where the screws will go in. 01056D92-4DA8-4816-81E2-6E0689944B49.jpegThe idea was to avoid it wanting to chip when assembled. I don’t know if this is going to work, or look nice, yet… if not, I’ll touch up the holes by hand after a little sand paper scuff (easy to do with single stage paint)

Assembly starts next week.
Hope I can figure out how to put the apron back together!

Enjoy your Tgiving.
-CM.
 
Today was component repair day.
Have three parts I think I can rehab.
Realized as I laid them out; gonna have to tackle cast aluminum for one, silicone bronze braze another, and weld cast iron for the third.
Been a while since I even turned on the welder - so work was cut out for me.

IMG_5501.JPG
First up was the tail stock wiper holder.
I decided I could just build up some aluminum and machine it back.
Just needed to be careful about not warping/drooping the part.
Was able to get my welding sea legs on this first part - building up a bunch of 5356 filler rod.
I find it machines nicer than the 4000 series - so it's my preference for repairs like this.
IMG_5528 3.JPG
Few passes on the mill and it's mostly ready to go. Will hand shape the V angle, and hit it with some paint.
IMG_5532 2.JPG

Next up was the apron pump arm.
This is where everything went pear shaped.
Lit up the TIG torch on it - and the entire tip just slumped off.
Doh!
IMG_5505.JPG
Luckily - having completely fubared other parts before - I kept at it and managed to build back a nice tip.
I have zero idea if its the right shape...
If someone has a photo of the arm they want to post - I'd surely welcome.
My plan is to assemble and build it up more/shape as needed to ensure it engages when cam'd.

Finally - I tackled the tailstock handle.
I found the ball in some of the tools when I got the machine.
There's been some discussion here about how to tackle.
I got some welding rod that purportedly can be used on cast iron - and gave it a go.

Fixturing the part is half the battle. Finally came up with a solution that worked nicely.
I was able to set the tail and the ball into holes - to stabilize them.
IMG_5513.JPG

with the ball end in a hole - I was able to get good fit up that allowed my hands to be free.

IMG_5514.JPG
I tacked both sides of the ball in position, then ground out a big U shape on the side that I could re-fill with welding material.IMG_5519 2.JPG

After filling - it looked like this (feels really solid).

IMG_5520 2.JPG

Battered but not beaten.
Pump arm will get a little more love once I can test it into place to check for fit.
Will start assembling the apron tomorrow before I forget how it all goes back together.
IMG_5536.jpg

Here is a link to the material I used to weld the tailstock handle with:
 

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