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Resurrecting 1960 10EE with 460V Sabina drive

Re-assembly started.
Intimidating.
Suspect I’ll need help.
- Lots of parts to assemble in sequence.
- Shims from early 70’s “remanufacture” (what ever that means) recorded in many a disassembly photo.
- realignment of tail stock body and base: no idea.

As for the latter - here’s what it looks like stacked.
Care taken with finishing is part of the process of learning the machine for me.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Enough impetus to keep me moving.
496D6254-1E6B-4A92-A799-6143D7AC7006.jpeg
 
Commenced re-assembly of apron.
Getting a feel for things.
One question quickly answered: the retaining rings and housings are designed to create limits/ center the gears and shafts within the apron casting.
Pretty smart.
Remarkable really.

Could use some help on getting clutch stack correct.

Not certain order of components between the two gears A and E below.

Know the spring serves as the resistance.
Not sure where the thrust bearing C goes, and there is an additional washer D that I believe is in the mix also?

Can anyone help me with order of A-E?

As an aside, curious: the thrust bearings have a small and large hole side. One is a net fit to the central shaft. The other is larger. Wonder why?

Thanks!
—CM.
 

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Commenced re-assembly of apron.
Getting a feel for things.
One question quickly answered: the retaining rings and housings are designed to create limits/ center the gears and shafts within the apron casting.
Pretty smart.
Remarkable really.

Could use some help on getting clutch stack correct.

Not certain order of components between the two gears A and E below.

Know the spring serves as the resistance.
Not sure where the thrust bearing C goes, and there is an additional washer D that I believe is in the mix also?

Can anyone help me with order of A-E?

As an aside, curious: the thrust bearings have a small and large hole side. One is a net fit to the central shaft. The other is larger. Wonder why?

Thanks!
—CM.
I documented it all step by step. You can start with this post for the friction assemblies. Both are the same.

From the front of the apron, A Then D Then B Then C then E. Truth be told you could swap the washer and the thrust bearing on either side of that spring, but the way I documented it is the way it came from the factory.
 
Grant - much appreciated.
Funnily - was just looking at your incredible documentation as you typed.
So helpful.

I'd taken a look yesterday - with gloved greasy hands - and seen the first picture laid out.
That one didn't seam to have the extra washer that I was uncertain of.
For what its worth - here is the first one you posted.

Screenshot 2023-12-03 at 9.33.09 AM.png
The second one answered my question nicely.
What a job you've done documenting for us all.
Screenshot 2023-12-03 at 9.39.14 AM.png
Here (above - you can see the additional washer.
You also took the time to lay it out in such a way that the orientation of the thrust washer's larger ID vs smaller ID order can be seen.

I'd read Cal's comment about the smaller ID "turning with the shaft" but hadn't quite followed.
The image above clarifies the order for these larger thrust bearings that reside on the outer side of the gears.

Thanks!
 
Grant - much appreciated.
Funnily - was just looking at your incredible documentation as you typed.
So helpful.

I'd taken a look yesterday - with gloved greasy hands - and seen the first picture laid out.
That one didn't seam to have the extra washer that I was uncertain of.
For what its worth - here is the first one you posted.

View attachment 418412
The second one answered my question nicely.
What a job you've done documenting for us all.
View attachment 418413
Here (above - you can see the additional washer.
You also took the time to lay it out in such a way that the orientation of the thrust washer's larger ID vs smaller ID order can be seen.

I'd read Cal's comment about the smaller ID "turning with the shaft" but hadn't quite followed.
The image above clarifies the order for these larger thrust bearings that reside on the outer side of the gears.

Thanks!
When you get it back together, that large threaded bushing that goes in the outside of the friction stem is what sets the preload on that spring. Too low and it wont engage, too high and it's a pain to adjust. I'd defiantly test its setting prior to installing the rest of the gearing into the apron.
 
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I'd read Cal's comment about the smaller ID "turning with the shaft" but hadn't quite followed.
The image above clarifies the order for these larger thrust bearings that reside on the outer side of the gears.

Thanks!
The races for ball thrust bearings are called rings (some places call them washers). If one ring has a smaller ID than the other, that ring is called the shaft ring and the other is the housing ring. You need to think about how the bearing will operate to get them properly aligned. The shaft ring is usually a close fit to the shaft and needs to be installed so the it is not rotating against the shaft. In this case the shaft is stationary, so the housing ring goes against the rotating gear. If you install it the other way, the gear will try to rotate the ring about the shaft or slip against the face of the gear and cause wear. The shaft rings of the outer bearings should be on the outside. Does that make sense?

If the center bearing rings have IDs that are essentially the same as the OD of the shaft, it may not be the right bearing. In that spot, you basically need two housing rings. If the bearing ID is a close fit to the shaft it's going to wear. That type of bearing is intended to be aligned on its OD, whereas one with a shaft ring aligns on the ID, that is on the shaft.
 
The shaft ring is usually a close fit to the shaft and needs to be installed so the it is not rotating against the shaft. In this case the shaft is stationary, so the housing ring goes against the rotating gear. If you install it the other way, the gear will try to rotate the ring about the shaft or slip against the face of the gear and cause wear.
Ahhh. got it.
Thanks Cal.
Basically - you don't want a net fit ID spinning on a shaft. It should be stationary or close to in use.
Makes perfect sense now.
 
If you still have the apron apart, I'm interested in a close up of the gear on the left:
screenshot-2023-12-03-at-9-39-14-am-png.418413

I want to understand if there's a counterbore or some other feature that will align the center bearing ring on the left, the one that's up against the inner face of the gear.
 
Cal, I literally just broke for lunch after installing both clutch stacks and adjusting the tensions…

But I have pictures of my components - and a pretty fresh memory. I don’t believe my (square dial) does.

Just to clarify: is this the gear and adjacent washer you are referring to?
(Pic is Grants. I have others from mine I can share)DAF68357-BD2B-4BB5-8B65-80AEF0E4EA6F.jpeg
 
That's the one. It looks like there might be a shallow counterbore to align the washer/race.
Well, we are in luck - ‘cause I shot some pictures that captured that surface pretty well on mine.

Here are the two:
57DCF106-3CCC-4CE1-9A78-260E9DB14039.jpeg

CA04799D-E86F-4641-8E66-2200A1AEA8E7.jpeg

Mine had a slightly raised boss.

Perhaps Grant has a closer image of his. Welcome to post here.
 
Gents - Can I get some input on the following.
Oil pathway on apron casting at bottom - right next to 90° brass fitting as seen with arrow pointing at it in this picture :
IMG_5622 2.jpg
Mine is threaded - but nothing in it.
Looks to me like a passage drill hole that should be plugged?
Can anyone shed some light on this?
Thanks,
-CM
 
Managed to find a pic with tell-tale sign of what was in that oil passage.
Hiding next to the brass fitting.
Arrow.
1701741455182.jpeg

Managed to get the oil pump installed.
Took some fitting and re-fitting.
In fact, I would describe this entire exercise so far more as refitting than assembling.

Lots of file work on edges, and polishing of gnarled interfaces, to allow smooth operation.

One thing that’s worked for me on the apron, to sweeten the alignment of gears and allow everything to spin freely - has been to bump the shafts once installed, with a heavy hammer and punch.

Each time I install a shaft, and put in all the scotch keys and lock it down, I then spin the gear to determine if there is any drag.

If yes, I try bumping couple taps, first from front, then from back, until I get improved free spin.
CCFA55AB-8D8E-4C8D-A5A4-644889CFC26F.jpeg
Brass punch and mini sledge, just bump it. .005 can be the difference between freewheeling and binding.

Beauty shot to end my day.
Top set of gears and shafts still to come.
Need solution for oil filling hole - part currently unpainted until I have direction.
Perhaps press fit oil git. Weigh in if you have opinion/idea.

Curent status:
972D3B90-0DFF-4FA6-B4D4-99CC686B06D1.jpeg
 
Today was all oil pump.
After all - this whole thing is only stripped down because I wanted to ensure the system works.

I've read elsewhere that people have struggled with start up.
Rather than attempting to prime the pump, I took a little different approach.
Worked nicely.
Sharing here.

Using the silicone paint plugs (idea harvested from Grant's thread), I plugged all but one hole in the casting.
This allowed me to use a power brake bleeder with rubber tube to suck oil into the system - no manual priming.

In short, it was possible to assemble the apron, fill the sump, then suck oil from the sump through the pump and all the oil feed holes to prime it - using the bleeder.
Turning of lead screw then activated the pump and I had oil feed with each rotation.

Bleeder was cheap - and worked a charm.
I've used it at other times to suck oil out before working on things like the head stock.
Where the drain plug is slow/messy/or incomplete.


Bleeder creates suction and has its own reservoir bottle.

IMG_5649.JPG

Tube from bleeder pulls oil right through pump and primes entire casting. You can see a black silicone plug in one of the holes.
IMG_5648.JPG

Didn't have much more time - but felt good to see the repaired pump arm/ cleaned up system, pumping fresh oil in a heart beat like fashion. I think apron is ready to button up.
 
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View attachment 418580
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Mine had a slightly raised boss.

...
Interesting. The gears are definitely not designed to center the outer washer. From what you said, the ID of the bearing is a close fit to the shaft, so it's being aligned on the ID. Apparently, in this application, wear due to the hardened washers rotating about the shaft isn't a big problem. Do you have a good photo of the shaft that might show if there were wear in that area?
 
Artwork I tell you, artwork!
Melding of some good ideas already out there.
Many thanks.
Super pleased with how its come out so far.

the ID of the bearing is a close fit to the shaft,
Just short of a net fit.
wear due to the hardened washers rotating about the shaft isn't a big problem. Do you have a good photo of the shaft that might show if there were wear in that area?
The shafts do have some wear.
Recall reading Daryl Bane mentioning similar - and fixing it with replacement shafts grafted on.
Unfortunately, my only lathe is the one exploded in a million pieces all over my shop.
There is a hole in my bucket dear Liza...

Here is a pic of the shaft - and you can see the wear.
I chucked it up and spun it using 600 grit sandpaper to clean up some high spots.
Material is remarkably soft.

The wear marks align with the smaller OD thrust bearing positions - think that's what you presumed would occur?
IMG_4332.JPG
 
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The shafts do have some wear.
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Here is a pic of the shaft - and you can see the wear.
...

The wear marks align with the smaller OD thrust bearing positions - think that's what you presumed would occur?
View attachment 419033
Yes, that's what I expected. IMHO, the way to do this properly is to machine a counterbore in the front gear (with the male taper), to align the OD of the bearing, and switch to a bearing with an ID that doesn't touch the shaft. The amount of material machined off of the gear could be made up by a thicker washer behind the spring.
 
Cal - thought I had posted here in response.
Agreed - it's a weird set up - to have a shaft that is the wear point - rather than a replaceable bearing...

Your solution would allow the existing shaft to be used - which is kind of interesting.
Down side would be any potential wear moving to the gear I would think - as the bearing OD would now abraid that rather than the shaft?

I want to go back and take a closer look at the shafts.
Looking at pic - wondering if they are pressed into the casting with the hole in it where I show the arrow - or if they turned down a large casting to create the entire part?
The latter would explain why they are so soft, if that's the case.
The former would make them simpler to repair/graft new shafts onto.

Any thoughts on that from those with experience?IMG_5694.jpgd
 








 
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