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Returning a Machine(Haas)

LongJeff

Plastic
Joined
Jan 6, 2022
I can't figure out how to remove this post so I'm editing it out.

I am strongly under the opinion that there is something mechanically wrong with the machine beyond a normal lack of rigidity. I've pretty much-tried everything speeds and feeds-wise to no avail and this setup is rock solid.. Once I get to the bottom of it, I'll follow up.
 
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DDoug

Diamond
Joined
Oct 18, 2005
Location
NW Pa
We ended up getting a new UMC-750 a few weeks ago. I knew it wasn't going to be a high-performance machine, but I'm really starting to get worried as I start to run more work on it.

This thing seems about as stiff as a wet noodle. I'm having trouble finding productive feeds and speeds in 316SS. Some .450 holes I bored in 12L14 had to be pushed out to .460" in CAM to get close to that .450. Surface finishes are not great. These are all solid parts in a rigid setup. I'm really worried I made a huge mistake going with this machine.

Has anyone ever tried to return a machine? (Specifically a Haas)I really don't want to be stuck with this. My initial expectations couldn't have been lower, and this machine is failing to live up.

Did you draw up a contract stating exactly what the machine was to doo ?
 

apoet

Plastic
Joined
Dec 10, 2021
This thing seems about as stiff as a wet noodle. I'm having trouble finding productive feeds and speeds in 316SS. Some .450 holes I bored in 12L14 had to be pushed out to .460" in CAM to get close to that .450.


Is there a chance a smoothing parameter is causing this? Does the same program in aluminum hit the dimension?
 

DDoug

Diamond
Joined
Oct 18, 2005
Location
NW Pa
Nothing like that at all. Is that a standard thing when purchasing machines? Am I fairly screwed without that?

I did foundation work on a hi-priced Mori Seiki (IIRC) that had it all laid out in the contract, it would doo these jobs, to these tolerances, in this amount of time.
 

Milland

Diamond
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Location
Hillsboro, New Hampshire
Did you get an accuracy statement sheet with the machine? Get it ball-barred or lasered to see where it stands now.

Also take a tenths test indicator and touch off various areas while at rest, and while applying a known load with a ~100lb fish scale or weights at a known distance. Chart how much deflection you get and run the numbers by Haas to get their take.

Also with the test indicator, you can do repeat movements to a indicator "0" with weights on the table or not. See what repeatability you get from that.

Basically, you want to ensure it's not something like a pivot point bearing being under-preloaded or otherwise compromised.

Good luck, let us know how you do. And next time, get the machine vendor to allow a setup and test article at their facility before accepting the machine. And check out forums like this, there's plenty of complaints about the Haas UMC's that can be easily found.
 

LongJeff

Plastic
Joined
Jan 6, 2022
Did you get an accuracy statement sheet with the machine? Get it ball-barred or lasered to see where it stands now.

Also take a tenths test indicator and touch off various areas while at rest, and while applying a known load with a ~100lb fish scale or weights at a known distance. Chart how much deflection you get and run the numbers by Haas to get their take.

Also with the test indicator, you can do repeat movements to a indicator "0" with weights on the table or not. See what repeatability you get from that.

Basically, you want to ensure it's not something like a pivot point bearing being under-preloaded or otherwise compromised.

Good luck, let us know how you do. And next time, get the machine vendor to allow a setup and test article at their facility before accepting the machine. And check out forums like this, there's plenty of complaints about the Haas UMC's that can be easily found.

I'll definitely have to do some more experimenting. I also reached out to a Haas AE to see what he thinks too.

However, this was a showroom machine for like a year. I really would have thought they would have found something mechanically off.

Is there a chance a smoothing parameter is causing this?

I don't think that it's a smoothing thing, but I'll dig more into that. I'm posting pretty much the same code to my VF-4 with no issues.


To be specific about what I am running in 316 right now to avoid nasty chatter: 1" 5FL Helical FEM in a Haimer heat shrink holder @ 200SFM .015WOC .390DOC .005/tooth. I feel like a Tormach could do that. There has to be something off.
 

2outof3

Titanium
Joined
Sep 27, 2014
Location
West Coast USA
1. Have you paid for it?
2. If not have you accepted it?

If the answer is yes to both, you are in for a battle. If the answer is no, than you have a better than average fighting chance to find a settlement. It will cost you something.
 

thesidetalker

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jan 11, 2015
Location
Bay Area, CA
had to be pushed out to .460" in CAM to get close to that .450

Yes, the machines are made of paper machete, but this is just dumb. What is your feed rate and tool size for this? Perhaps you should consider watching this: YOUR FEEDRATE IS WRONG! – Haas Automation Tip of the Day - YouTube

Do you know how to use cutter comp? Why are you adjusting the model?

My UMC750 cuts stainless all day just fine and is an older machine and arguably even less rigid with the old (narrow) saddle design.
 

mhajicek

Titanium
Joined
May 11, 2017
Location
Minneapolis, MN, USA
1. Program an interpolated bore much slower than a straight line. If the cutter is half the diameter of the hole, feedrate should be halved. If the cutter is proportionally larger, the feedrate needs to be cut even further.
2. Turn on G187 P3 high precision mode.
3. Skim it.
 

Garwood

Diamond
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Location
Oregon
I've read all the terrible UMC750 stuff, but had never actually looked at what the machine's specs are from Haas until just now.

Do you people who are buying these things realize machines from premium builders had vastly more advanced capabilities 30 years ago? And a lot of those machines STILL deliver on those specs 30 years later?

This is the tragic part of building your business with Haas. When you are ready to step into a big boy machine you get Haas'd with a machine that can't do what they say it can.

If you need high production, high accuracy with 5 axis or both, go with a proven MTB. Haas is doing the same shit they did for decades with their 8 HP 30HP spindles and giving a max feedrate that required a foot of acceleration to achieve.

I have seen perfect, immaculate condition 15 year old full 5 axis Makinos sell for pocket money that would MURDER a new Haas UMC750 in every possible way.

If I was spending that kind of money I'd want 20K++ RPM, 1200+ IPM feedrates and wicked rapids.

650IPM and 15K RPM and it can't even interpolate a bore on size. LMAO Haas.
 

gkoenig

Titanium
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Location
Portland, OR
Do you people who are buying these things realize machines from premium builders had vastly more advanced capabilities 30 years ago? And a lot of those machines STILL deliver on those specs 30 years later?

I wouldn't even touch a UMC with someone else's money, but the strange thing is that for every thread where things have gone pear shaped with someone's UMC, I can point to a shop that seems to be using them just fine, with fantastic economics that might tempt one to think going with a more expensive 5ax solution is just hemorrhaging cash for no ROI.

The problem is, I can't tell if it is the arrow or the Indian in this situation. There is a shop here in Portland with a room full of 750s that is banging out very complex titanium castings for PCP that are on-point... but it is also run by the local Zeiss guy (or he is deeply involved, IDK which), so the amount of probing and complicated macro programming going on to make that happen is well outside of the capabilities of most. They love their UMCs, and they will flat out say the reason they went Haas is because they can get 2 UMC spindles on the floor for what 1 Mikron/Hermle/Grob would cost before options. I am sure that programming investment was massive, but once you have it working and prove out that the UMC can do it, you can scale the business pretty damn well.

In the end, I find the UMC situation fascinating. It is easy to sit behind a keyboard and say "You should have gotten an Okuma!" but damn... we are not talking a small amount of money between the UMC and the next step up in machine quality (i.e. the price doubles). I'm not surprised folks would read some of the horror stories, and still see if they can't get the UMC to work.
 

Garwood

Diamond
Joined
Oct 10, 2009
Location
Oregon
I wouldn't even touch a UMC with someone else's money, but the strange thing is that for every thread where things have gone pear shaped with someone's UMC, I can point to a shop that seems to be using them just fine, with fantastic economics that might tempt one to think going with a more expensive 5ax solution is just hemorrhaging cash for no ROI.

The problem is, I can't tell if it is the arrow or the Indian in this situation. There is a shop here in Portland with a room full of 750s that is banging out very complex titanium castings for PCP that are on-point... but it is also run by the local Zeiss guy (or he is deeply involved, IDK which), so the amount of probing and complicated macro programming going on to make that happen is well outside of the capabilities of most. They love their UMCs, and they will flat out say the reason they went Haas is because they can get 2 UMC spindles on the floor for what 1 Mikron/Hermle/Grob would cost before options. I am sure that programming investment was massive, but once you have it working and prove out that the UMC can do it, you can scale the business pretty damn well.

In the end, I find the UMC situation fascinating. It is easy to sit behind a keyboard and say "You should have gotten an Okuma!" but damn... we are not talking a small amount of money between the UMC and the next step up in machine quality (i.e. the price doubles). I'm not surprised folks would read some of the horror stories, and still see if they can't get the UMC to work.

I wasn't suggesting spending more money over what the UMC750 costs to get a premium machine. I was suggesting buying a used premium machine and trying to point out that you can go back, way back, in time and get machines that are more advanced in every way.

Many of the larger shops I deal with that run top brand machines have a mix of machines they bought new and many they bought used. They expect to do a little work on a used machine and plan/budget accordingly.

You're local. I'm sure you know how big ATI is. They recently sold a full 5 axis pallet changing 180 tool A77 Makino for $3500. Just before selling it they spent $200k to have Makino replace all the screws, scales, ways, spindle and rebuilt the trunnions. It was essentially a new 15 year old machine. 45K lbs with 3 point leveling. What a sweetheart. If I could have shoehorned it in I would own it.

That's certainly not an every day event, but deals like that come up. Especially with machines that need a major repair like a spindle or gearbox. Something the factory quotes $50k for, but Setco can do it for $7k if you pull it out. That kind of stuff. To me, it's worth saving fifty or a hundred grand.
 

mhajicek

Titanium
Joined
May 11, 2017
Location
Minneapolis, MN, USA
They recently sold a full 5 axis pallet changing 180 tool A77 Makino for $3500.

Sounds like the kind of deal you have to know someone. Used machines, and their availability, are unpredictable, which means you can't plan a business around them. They're harder to finance too. When I was shopping for the first machine to start my shop, I found I couldn't afford a used machine, so I had to buy a new one.

Buy a used machine and find it won't do the job, who can you go to? Can't return it, can't have warranty work done, you're up a crick. Best you can do is keep throwing money at it in hopes it'll work.
 

cnctoolcat

Titanium
Joined
Sep 18, 2006
Location
Abingdon, VA
If there is something mechanically wrong with your VMC, it can only be so many things:

Are all the frame casting bolts torqued properly? level, with factory-spec weight at each leg?

Are are the linear guide rail and truck bolts torqued properly?

Are the ballscrew and nut mounting bolts all torqued? ...preloaded properly?

Are the servos tuned properly?

Is the spindle cartridge installed properly?

With all of the above checked off, then it's probably the spindle itself. Proper assembly and preload of a machine tool spindle is an exact process, and easy enough to not get exactly right.

ToolCat
 

metal-ica

Aluminum
Joined
Jan 19, 2019
"They recently sold a full 5 axis pallet changing 180 tool A77 Makino for $3500..."

That's crazy! Do you know their reasoning to sell it? Makes you wonder if after dropping all that cash it had a cracked casting or something and they just needed to make it someone else's problem. Deep pocket companies do some sideways shit sometimes though. There was an outfit in South San Francisco that had a 4 spindle Makino cell with a shitload of pallets. The spindles all had less than 500 hours on them when they decided to auction off.

Sucks to the OP that you're having problems. Express your deep disappointment to the HFO and give them an opportunity to make it right and report back. I've made my living buying and running haas verticals and have mostly been pleased. If I was in the market for a 5 axis I would consider a umc but hearing these stories would make me thing twice.
 

gkoenig

Titanium
Joined
Mar 31, 2013
Location
Portland, OR
That's crazy! Do you know their reasoning to sell it?

Selling a used piece of equipment for a decent price is the sort of thing owners of businesses care about. Once a company gets big enough that all of the folks with this sort of common sense hustle are either bought out or are so disconnected from the shop floor that individual capital assets do not fit into their everyday thinking, you wind up with nobody caring because there is nothing in it for them.

They could have sold that Makino for $100k... but there is no incentive for the lower level folks to actually do that. What they are incentivized to do is get the job done quickly, which I'm sure the $3,500 price probably did, and to have no liability (which the $3,500 price also did). Beyond those two mission parameters, why put any more effort into it? It isn't like the folks doing the work here would actually see a dime of any of it.

Another big local shop had just bought and commissioned a new Feinblank line, custom built for them in Siwtzerland. Of course, it came with pallets of special maintenance tools, jigs for swapping blanking tools, spare parts, moving frames, etc etc. Within a week of the commissioning, some plant manager bozo had all those accessories scrapped because his 5S training told him to eliminate anything that isn't directly used in the process of making stuff. $300k of Swiss precision scrapped having never been used. Not the floor manager's problem - that is the maintenance and stamping department's problem to go to accounting and beg to get it re-built.
 

Cole2534

Diamond
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Location
Oklahoma City, OK
"They recently sold a full 5 axis pallet changing 180 tool A77 Makino for $3500..."

That's crazy! Do you know their reasoning to sell it? Makes you wonder if after dropping all that cash it had a cracked casting or something and they just needed to make it someone else's problem. Deep pocket companies do some sideways shit sometimes though.

Welcome to big corporate accounting and finance, it makes no sense to most.

Programmed via Mazatrol
 








 
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