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Scale Merlin Crankshaft

Pete in NC

Aluminum
Joined
Oct 23, 2006
Location
Cary, NC
I assume this for an RC aircraft?

CNC would seem the way to go for the small volumes involved. Find the right shop and they might even do the first it for the good publicity!
 

gwilson

Diamond
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Location
williamsburg va
Mr.Yeagley's Merlin crankshaft was made of A2 steel.I asked him about it.I asked if he had any trouble with it warping in heat treatment.He said no.The Merlin names on the valve covers were e.d.m.'d,he said.This is all I know about that engine.
 

Chris999

Hot Rolled
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Location
Vancouver B.C.
I have to wonder about your assertion that there's a very limited market for what you're undertaking. Maybe for runnable engines, but what about a complete but non runnable engine?
This is arguably the most famous engine in history and certainly in this day of internet marketing there should be a brisk global demand for an "executive toy" such as this.
Not that I want to tell you what to do though.
I assume your drawings are from 3D CAD, why not put up a post in the CNC or Mazak forum and see what the experts think it would cost? It may not be as bad as you think for setup. It would be curious to see what kind of answers you get.

Good Luck, Chris
 

Charles Dolan

Hot Rolled
Joined
Apr 28, 2006
Location
Montreal Canada
I don't think I have heard a more remarkable piece of information than JohnNoders: Packard made 56000 merlins in 30 months! The magnitude of this achievement is extraordinary. To make an average of almost 60 a day of arguably one of the most complicated and sophisticated mechanisms of the time is truly astonishing.
I'll bet the men who did that weren't afraid of a little competition from China!

Charles
 

johnoder

Diamond
Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Location
Houston, TX USA
Charles:

You can drop that extra "N" if you don't mind. Plain old John Oder, like the river in east Germany.

The 30 months included redesign of the engine for mass production, demolition of existing buildings and construction of a dedicated plant.

The gents across the pond contined to make them lovingly by hand so to speak, though at not the output on East Grand Blvd in Detroit.

Packard had been building aviation and marine engines since the teens, so they had a good idea of how to proceed without much fooling around :D

Read up on Jesse Vincent when you have the chance.

John
 

Glenn Wegman

Hot Rolled
Joined
Jan 6, 2007
Location
Florida
And the parts are within tenths of the dimensions called out on the prints!!

And they couldn't even spell CNC back then. I think we have a winner for the "How would you define a good Machinist" thread.

Glenn
 

gwilson

Diamond
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Location
williamsburg va
There is a website for seeing mr.Yeaglie's engine.I typed his name in after reading this discussion,and it came right up.He mentions what steels,mostly A2,that were used in his engine.P.S.,senior moment,i meant Rolls Royce name on covers,not Merlin.
 

jagwinn

Plastic
Joined
Jan 22, 2007
Location
Fisher, Illinois (Champaign/Urbana area)
The V-1650 liquid-cooled Packard engine was the U.S. version of the famous British Rolls-Royce "Merlin" engine which powered the "Spitfire" and "Hurricane" fighters during the Battle of Britain in 1940. In Sept. 1940, the Packard Co. agreed to build the Merlin engine for both the American and the British Governments, and adapted it for American mass-production methods. The first two Packard-built Merlins to be completed were demonstrated on test stands at a special ceremony at the Packard plant in Detroit on August 2, 1941.

Full production began in 1942 and by the end of World War II, 55,873 Merlin engines had been produced in the U.S.A. The Army Air Forces used the Merlin engine almost exclusively in the famed P-51 "Mustang", for it provided greatly improved high-altitude performance over the Allison V-1710 engine used in earlier series of the airplane. The V-1650 Merlin also replaced the V-1710 in the "F" series of the P-40. The British also used Packard-built Merlins during the last three years of the war in their "Spitfire", "Mosquito", and "Lancaster" airplanes.
 

Charles Dolan

Hot Rolled
Joined
Apr 28, 2006
Location
Montreal Canada
John, allthough this is a bit off topic, as you are obviously a knowledgeable cove when concerning aero engines are you familiar with the Bristol Sabre engine which was to power the Hawker Tempest? If you are can you tell me what was its fatal flaw that made it unreliable?
As I understand it this was a supercharged sleeve valve engine that produced the highest specific horsepower of any piston engine but was not developed further as by the time it was operational all the research cash was going to jets.
I have always been intrigued by this radical machine and would appreciate anything you can tell me.

Charles
 

dynamotive

Plastic
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Location
San Diego
I've heard that Packard had to re-do all the drawings because the British (and European and Asian) view system is different from the U.S. - 'first angle' and 'third angle'. Anybody know if that's true? I got a question recently from a Danish customer asking about that very subject on the camshaft drawing.
 

johnoder

Diamond
Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Location
Houston, TX USA
I'll readily plead ignorant on the British engines in general and sleeve valve engines in particular - but will say these marvels of near infinite complexity were self defeating as soon as the bean counters found out an engine with far fewer parts and weight would easily make twice the usable power on cheap kerosene type fuel.

You can even see some of Pratt & Whitney Aircraft's liquid cooled sleeve valve efforts in this direction if you ever get to go thru their private engine museum in East Hartford. They were unceremoniously dumped as feasible ideas much to the chagrin of their proponents.

John
 

dynamotive

Plastic
Joined
Jan 20, 2007
Location
San Diego
The Napier Sabre was an 'H-24', a 24 cylinder engine, with two flat-twelves mounted one above the other. Here's some stuff from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napier_Sabre

Incidentally, Barry Hares also built a scale Rolls-Royce Eagle, which was similar to the Napier Sabre (but better, of course) The guy is incredible! http://www.enginehistory.org/eagle_22.htm

"Problems started to appear as soon as volume production started. Up to that point the engines had been hand-assembled by Napier craftsmen, and it proved to be rather difficult to adapt it to assembly line production techniques. In particular, the sleeves tended to fail quite often, seizing the engine in the process. At that time Bristol were well on the way to delivering their first production sleeve valve engines, the Taurus, which shared the same bore as the Sabre. At first Bristol refused to work with Napier, but eventually, under intense pressure from the Air Ministry, they relented, and the problems soon disappeared with the addition of Bristol's well-machined sleeves.

Quality control also proved to be a serious problem. Engines were often delivered with improperly cleaned castings, broken piston rings, and machine cuttings left inside the engine. Mechanics were constantly overworked trying to keep Sabres running, and during cold weather they had to run them every two hours during the night so that the engine oil wouldn't congeal and prevent the engine starting the next day (unlike 'multigrades' today, the oils available tended to become thick at low temperatures, preventing the Sabre from 'picking-up' when started) These problems took too long to straighten out, and for many the engine started to attain a bad reputation. To make matters worse, mechanics and pilots were unfamiliar with the very different nature of this engine, and tended to blame the Sabre for problems which were caused by incorrect handling. This was all exacerbated by the representatives of the competing Rolls-Royce company, who had their own agenda."

I know a guy who flew Tempests in WWII, and he said if you heard a 'clunk' you had about 30 seconds to get it on the ground.
 

Asquith

Diamond
Joined
Mar 3, 2005
Location
Somerset, UK
Total production of Merlin engines:-

Packard Detroit AND Continental Motors, Muskegan: 55,523

R-R Derby: 32,377
R-R Crewe: 26,605
R-R Glasgow: 23,647

Ford UK Manchester 30,428

Source: ‘The Magic of a Name: The Rolls-Royce Story: The First 40 Years’ by Peter Pugh. Publ Icon Books, UK, and Totem Books, USA. An excellent series of three books. Look out for occasional special offers on the three.

I find the achievements of the manufacturers in WW2 amazing, and I just wish the human aspects were better recorded. Rolls-Royce, like countless other firms, was encouraged to set up ‘shadow factories’ to disperse production just before the war. These were nominally in areas where skilled people were available, but demand soon outstripped supply, especially when many were called up or volunteered for military service.

Workers had to be shipped in for the new factories, and there weren’t the houses to accommodate them. People had workers billeted on them. It’s impossible to imagine the mental and physical duress of working long hours, with severely rationed food, the blackout, air raids, and worries about the safety of friends and relations, and fears about the future course of the war. The Peter Pugh book quotes an example of an early problem of increasing absenteeism at the R-R Glasgow factory, ‘…. due to the workers suffering from mental and physical fatigue, and in a bid to try and resolve the problem we reduced the working hours slightly – i.e. to eighty-two hours a week by means of arranging one half-Sunday a month as holiday.’

For those involved in organising production, there were tremendous headaches in getting material and machines. Much travelling was involved, and though distances in the UK are relatively short, train journeys were subject to much disruption, and fuel for cars was very strictly rationed.

As for the Rolls-Royce factories, Derby had focused on development and production of relatively small batches, relying on a very high proportion of skilled people on the production side. In contrast, Crewe and Derby had to be designed from the outset for high volume production with a much lower proportion of skilled people. Crewe and Derby brought in a fair amount of components and castings from other factories, whereas by 1941 Glasgow machined 98% of its production and made its own castings.

I don’t know much about the Ford Manchester factory, although I think it employed 12,000 people. Presumably it didn’t have the blessing of Henry Ford, as he had earlier refused to make Merlin engines in the USA for a ‘belligerent nation’.

Ford, no doubt like Packard, and perhaps like the R-R shadow factories, had their own drawings, reflecting the different production methods. Packard were stuck with using British thread specifications, which apparently caused some delays early on.


Dynamotive,
This doesn’t help much in your quest! I’ve been looking in old copies of Model Engineer for similar projects, and haven’t got very far. In a 1949 magazine there was a similar-looking crankshaft, but for a truck, which had been turned from solid in 3% Nickel steel. Not many modellers had milling machines in those days!

You've probably seen this model Deltic engine.....

http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/Tomlinson.htm

The innards don't attempt to follow the protoype, and the builder want to avoid splitting the big ends, so he used ball bearings in conjunction with a built-up crankshaft (using Loctite or similar). He commented that he remained concerned about the effect of torsional vibration.
 

Peter S

Diamond
Joined
May 6, 2002
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
A few things, first it was Napier who made the Sabre, it wasn't fatally flawed, in fact was one of the key war time engines. It certainly had a troubled time for a while, and I think was dropped pretty quickly when the war ended.

Bristol continued to make their big sleeve valve engines into the 1960's.

Packard built alot of Merlins in WW2, but not at the rate that Rolls-Royce was producing them in Great Britain. There were over 100,000 built in Great Britain during the war. Rolls-Royce had three factories and Ford had a factory in Manchester.

Apart from this were the huge repair operations elsewhere (around 50,000 repair engines built).

Rolls-Royce supplied the technical expertise for Packard and Ford to build this most famous of aero engines.

As to the drawings - Packard did alot of work, Packard historian Robert Neal says they were redone in third-angle, also that they made their own sub assembly drawings, parts lists and even tolerances were not specified (I guess that last point would need some clarification). Packard had to do some re design to incorporate the two-piece cylinder block (a Rolls-Royce mod that was not yet in production in the UK), also there was a lot of drawing required to fit the American accessories when they were required.

Just a hint of the work involved at Packard, there were 60,000 gauges, tools and fixtures required plus 3,575 machine tools. The first production engine was finished in July 1941, quantity production of 510 per month in April 1942, average production of 1,024 per month in 1943 and an average of 1,930 per month in 1944 (about 300 less per month than Rolls-Royce in the same period). (BTW, I guess the idea that Rolls-Royce was sort of hand building engines without drawings while the automotive manufacturers led the way is fatally flawed!)

edit note: I see others have posted too, sorry to repeat similar info.

dynamotive, the cast crank certainly looks impressive - I guess your "production" struggles help you relate to those guys back in WW2
. I believe Clen Tomlinson is building a couple of 1/4 scale (accurate) Sabres at present. I would prefer to see a real one running some day!
 

jrlandau

Aluminum
Joined
Jan 28, 2003
Location
San Jose CA USA
Dynamotive, you might want to visit a meeting of the Bay Area Engine Modelers. On a good day, there would be a few people there with whom you could at least talk crankshafts. I don't think anyone has built a Merlin...yet. Meetings are on the 3rd Saturday, 10AM, in Oakland.

http://www.baemclub.com/
 

penmaker1

Plastic
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Location
Sterling, Virginia
the comment was made that the setup fees for having the crankshafts CNC machined would be would be prohibitive. That might be for just one, but once any reliable CNC shop has the code additonal runs should be relatively inexpensive. I run a CNC mill and lathe in my home shop, and for multiple identical parts it sure is the way to go. Yes it takes time for initial setup, but once the code is done you can run more any time with only minimal setup.
 








 
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