Schaublin 135 - Help upgrading electrical system

[marcsO]

OK just to clarify..

- leave the c4 jumper wires in place
- leave the three motor feed wires connected as they were in the last test L1/T1 and L2/T2 and L3/T3
- then remove c3-12 and test carriage lever to high speed, what should I be expecting normal trip out but no chattering?
- depending on above then connect SS-1 with SS-1A you say this should make the spindle spin at fast speed but do I have to move the lever to high speed or not?

 

[ballen]

OK just to clarify..

- leave the c4 jumper wires in place
- leave the three motor feed wires connected as they were in the last test L1/T1 and L2/T2 and L3/T3
- then remove c3-12 and test carriage lever to high speed, what should I be expecting normal trip out but no chattering?
- depending on above then connect SS-1 with SS-1A you say this should make the spindle spin at fast speed but do I have to move the lever to high speed or not?

Motor should only be connected to T1-3, otherwise as you write. When SS-1 is not connected and you switch control lever to high speed nothing should happen. then when you connect SS-1 and SS-1A motor should slow start

 

[ballen]

OK just to clarify..

Turn off lathe

- leave the c4 jumper wires in place

Yes

- leave the three motor feed wires connected as they were in the last test L1/T1 and L2/T2 and L3/T3

Yes:
SS should be fed by SS L1-3
Motor should be fed by SS T1-3

- then remove c3-12

Yes

and test carriage lever to high speed,

Yes
Then turn on the lathe

what should I be expecting normal trip out but no chattering?

No trip out and no chattering. Since the SS has not gotten a start signal, the motor should not be started so no current draw and hence no trip out or chattering. The motor should be still.

- depending on above then connect SS-1 with SS-1A you say this should make the spindle spin at fast speed but do I have to move the lever to high speed or not?

Lever is already in high speed setting. Leave it there, and when SS-1 is connected to SS-1A this should trigger the soft starter to turn on the motor.

 

[marcsO]

Going to test this today, one question when the ask is to remove c3/12 is that the connection 'added' to link the SS or the actual feed to c3-12 as per the original wiring?

 

[marcsO]

After reading back a few posts from Bruce it seemed the connection was to the SS from c3-12 so removed this and tried the process.
There was no chattering from c4 which was a bonus but the motor which is used by the phase convertor was not happy and it made a concerning noise when SS-1 was connected to SS-1A and the spindle did not rotate at all.

Whats the next suggestion?

 

[ballen]

My laptop stopped workkng and it will be a few days before it is fixed and I can give more than short summary replies

After reading back a few posts from Bruce it seemed the connection was to the SS from c3-12 so removed this and tried the process.

You did the right thing

There was no chattering from c4 which was a bonus but the motor which is used by the phase convertor was not happy and it made a concerning noise when SS-1 was connected to SS-1A and the spindle did not rotate at all.

I don’t know why this is happening. If you shorten the SS ramp up time and increase the ramp up voltage, does the spindle motor start?

Whats the next suggestion?

I think we should connect the spindle motor high speed winding directly to the RPC to see if the spindle motor starts and runs

 

[marcsO]

Will try to adjust some of the parameters on the SS to see if any deliver a result, the signs are not good but will see if the symptoms and motor outcomes change.

If this does not work can you provide info on how to connect directly to the RPC (assume this means remote phase controller?)

Do I order that contactor posted earlier BTW so if needed there is no delay in waiting for the part?

 

[marcsO]

Any updates as to the next phase of testing?

 

[marcsO]

Could someone confirm the wiring details for the direct test to the 3ph input from the remote phase controller, I understand the power phases just run through the SS (L1/T1..L2/T2..L3/T3) the question is how are the A and A1 connected up if the lathe is not powered up, are they simply connected up together to power the connection or another way, it's probably obvious to someone in the know but I don't want to create a large cloud of smoke if at all possible?

Believe 'ballen' has computer issues so was reaching out to other forum members as want to try to conclude this project and decide how to proceed to get a solution to allow high speed spindle running reliably.

 

[marcsO]

Sadly no reply from Ballen so this thread is going to stall for a while until I can find someone to direct the SS testing and work out if this device will fix the high speed transition or not.

I have a feeling the Phase Convertor is not able to deliver a stable voltage delivery during the initial start up loads made by the motor and this is causing the contactor to trip out, there have been a few instances when the high speed did engage so I know the system works its just not dependable.

If the Phase Convertor is not 'man enough' and when I bought it the specs of the motor etc were supplied to the manufacturer to provide the right solution I will have to do some head scratching as 3ph into my workshop is simply not an option unless that is I win the lottery ....... I was quoted over £75,000 to bring it to my workshop from the grid which is nonsense!

So we have achieved a fair bit already, found and repaired a broken contactor, upgraded the capacitor across this device, replaced a faulty rectifier and added a large capacitor for good measure and the brake is now working perfectly. I would like to consider replacing the current adjustment resistor used to set the brake voltage and hence brake force with a dial device so I can simply adjust the brake power to suit the work being done as often it's not good to have the chuck stop instantly all the time etc. If anyone can suggest a suitable dial variable resistor to work in this scenario please point me in a link direction as this should be a simple upgrade and one even I might be able to work out :-)

Hopefully we will get to a conclusion for this project so please feel free to come forward if you can help on this final process....

 

[marcsO]

Connecting the main motor high speed wiring directly to the Phase Controller results in a perfect hight speed output so it seems the Phase Controller is perfectly capable of running the high speed side of the main motor.

Was asked to connect the soft start into the set up so the wiring of the motor is via the Phase Controller but the switching side of the SS was delivered by a separate 240v supply avoiding the lathe controls, this will be the next test although waiting for confirmation I have the connections wired up correctly .....

 

[marcsO]

Sadly not getting any further instruction on what to do so this fix has now stalled as I do not have the knowledge to test any further, if there is someone with electrical know how who could direct me and tell me what to do and test that would be great.

I'm past the stage in my life to want to understand the complexities of electronics so simple guidance on what to do, how to test and what to report back is all I am looking for. The 135 is close to being fixed I am sure, and it would be sad to leave it in this stage of limbo, however if thats the final result then at least the brake is working well now just need to add a switch to turn if of if needed as having it on all the time is not ideal....

 

[marcsO]

No further progress so will shut this off now and leave the 135 as is, brake works great now so at least after all the work something is fixed

I suspect deep down that the RPC is the faulty item in that it does not provided enough grunt when the high speed kicks in, the SS does not seem to be helping this as all sorts of contactor buzzing goes on when it's wired as suggested so for now will put the panel back to how it was, remove the SS and reconnect the wires etc and live without high speed until I find someone who can just do the testing and work out the issue. The high speed mode works just not reliably ATM.

I am going to now focus on fitting a 'vintage' Mitutoyo DRO and new scales to the 135 and will post this process on the 'Project Schaublin 135' thread.

Thank you to all those who added comments and suggestions, to Bruce who has worked hard to help me and has solved some key issues, progress has been made and I'm hopeful the final issue will be fixed as some stage, will post any updates should they occur.

 

[marcsO]

I'm considering the following as an alternative to the RPC to power the 135, as I understand these electronic devices deliver a more balanced phase voltage and are programmable on the plus side but slightly less robust in terms of fragility of electrical components to an RPC.

I am hoping with some minor programming this device could simply be connected between my 240VAC single phase workshop supply and the main lathe wiring feeds to run the whole machine without any modifications to the current lathe control wiring and components.

Has anyone had experience of this solution, pro's and con's and any advice before I consider a purchase?




7.5KW VFD Variable Frequency Drive, Single Phase 220VAC Input 3-Phase 380VAC Output Vector Control CNC VFD,Inverter Converter,for Motor Speed Control

Appreciate any pointers, I've also reached out to see if there is anyone with electrical know how, specifically with machinery like lathes and mills who might live near Guildford in Surrey UK (or who knows of someone) who could spare a few hours and help me complete this installation should the inverter tick the boxes. Happy to pay for your time and furnish with tea and coffee, workshop is warm and dry so no thermals required

Believe that actually being on site would solve issues very fast rather than me trying to relay and understand electrical systems via email or WA which I don't really do well plus having the right testing equipment, which I do not.

Hope to hear from a 'local' soon, thank you.