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Secrets, Lies, And Sweatshops

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Secrets, Lies, And Sweatshops By Dexter Roberts & Pete Engardio, with Aaron Bernstein in Washington, Stanley Holmes in Seattle, and Xiang Ji in Beijing
Fri Nov 17, 4:00 PM ET



Tang yinghong was caught in an impossible squeeze. For years, his employer, Ningbo Beifa Group, had prospered as a top supplier of pens, mechanical pencils, and highlighters to Wal-Mart Stores (NYSE:WMT - News) and other major retailers. But late last year, Tang learned that auditors from Wal-Mart, Beifa's biggest customer, were about to inspect labor conditions at the factory in the Chinese coastal city of Ningbo where he worked as an administrator. Wal-Mart had already on three occasions caught Beifa paying its 3,000 workers less than China's minimum wage and violating overtime rules, Tang says. Under the U.S. chain's labor rules, a fourth offense would end the relationship.

Help arrived suddenly in the form of an unexpected phone call from a man calling himself Lai Mingwei. The caller said he was with Shanghai Corporate Responsibility Management & Consulting Co., and for a $5,000 fee, he'd take care of Tang's Wal-Mart problem. "He promised us he could definitely get us a pass for the audit," Tang says.

Lai provided advice on how to create fake but authentic-looking records and suggested that Beifa hustle any workers with grievances out of the factory on the day of the audit, Tang recounts. The consultant also coached Beifa managers on what questions they could expect from Wal-Mart's inspectors, says Tang. After following much of Lai's advice, the Beifa factory in Ningbo passed the audit earlier this year, Tang says, even though the company didn't change any of its practices.

For more than a decade, major American retailers and name brands have answered accusations that they exploit "sweatshop" labor with elaborate codes of conduct and on-site monitoring. But in China many factories have just gotten better at concealing abuses. Internal industry documents reviewed by BusinessWeek reveal that numerous Chinese factories keep double sets of books to fool auditors and distribute scripts for employees to recite if they are questioned. And a new breed of Chinese consultant has sprung up to assist companies like Beifa in evading audits. "Tutoring and helping factories deal with audits has become an industry in China," says Tang, 34, who recently left Beifa of his own volition to start a Web site for workers.

A lawyer for Beifa, Zhou Jie, confirms that the company employed the Shanghai consulting firm but denies any dishonesty related to wages, hours, or outside monitoring. Past audits had "disclosed some problems, and we took necessary measures correspondingly," he explains in a letter responding to questions. The lawyer adds that Beifa has "become the target of accusations" by former employees "whose unreasonable demands have not been satisfied." Reached by cell phone, a man identifying himself as Lai says that the Shanghai consulting firm helps suppliers pass audits, but he declines to comment on his work for Beifa.

Wal-Mart spokeswoman Amy Wyatt says the giant retailer will investigate the allegations about Beifa brought to its attention by BusinessWeek. Wal-Mart has stepped up factory inspections, she adds, but it acknowledges that some suppliers are trying to undermine monitoring: "We recognize there is a problem. There are always improvements that need to be made, but we are confident that new procedures are improving conditions."

CHINESE EXPORT manufacturing is rife with tales of deception. The largest single source of American imports, China's factories this year are expected to ship goods to the U.S. worth $280 billion. American companies continually demand lower prices from their Chinese suppliers, allowing American consumers to enjoy inexpensive clothes, sneakers, and electronics. But factory managers in China complain in interviews that U.S. price pressure creates a powerful incentive to cheat on labor standards that American companies promote as a badge of responsible capitalism. These standards generally incorporate the official minimum wage, which is set by local or provincial governments and ranges from $45 to $101 a month. American companies also typically say they hew to the government-mandated workweek of 40 to 44 hours, beyond which higher overtime pay is required. These figures can be misleading, however, as the Beijing government has had only limited success in pushing local authorities to enforc e Chinese labor laws. That's another reason abuses persist and factory oversight frequently fails.

Some American companies now concede that the cheating is far more pervasive than they had imagined. "We've come to realize that, while monitoring is crucial to measuring the performance of our suppliers, it doesn't per se lead to sustainable improvements," says Hannah Jones, Nike Inc.'s (NYSE:NKE - News) vice-president for corporate responsibility. "We still have the same core problems."

This raises disturbing questions. Guarantees by multi-nationals that offshore suppliers are meeting widely accepted codes of conduct have been important to maintaining political support in the U.S. for growing trade ties with China, especially in the wake of protests by unions and antiglobalization activists. "For many retailers, audits are a way of covering themselves," says Auret van Heerden, chief executive of the Fair Labor Assn., a coalition of 20 apparel and sporting goods makers and retailers, including Nike, Adidas Group, Eddie Bauer, and Nordstrom (NYSE:JWN - News). But can corporations successfully impose Western labor standards on a nation that lacks real unions and a meaningful rule of law?

Historically associated with sweatshop abuses but now trying to reform its suppliers, Nike says that one factory it caught falsifying records several years ago is the Zhi Qiao Garments Co. The dingy concrete-walled facility set near mango groves and rice paddies in the steamy southern city of Panyu employs 600 workers, most in their early 20s. They wear blue smocks and lean over stitching machines and large steam-blasting irons. Today the factory complies with labor-law requirements, Nike says, but Zhi Qiao's general manager, Peter Wang, says it's not easy. "Before, we all played the cat-and-mouse game," but that has ended, he claims. "Any improvement you make costs more money." Providing for overtime wages is his biggest challenge, he says. By law, he is supposed to provide time-and-a-half pay after eight hours on weekdays and between double and triple pay for Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays. "The price (Nike pays) never increases one penny," Wang complains, "but compliance with l abor codes definitely raises costs."

A Nike spokesman says in a written statement that the company, based in Beaverton, Ore., "believes wages are best set by the local marketplace in which a contract factory competes for its workforce." One way Nike and several other companies are seeking to improve labor conditions is teaching their suppliers more efficient production methods that reduce the need for overtime.

The problems in China aren't limited to garment factories, where labor activists have documented sweatshop conditions since the early 1990s. Widespread violations of Chinese labor laws are also surfacing in factories supplying everything from furniture and household appliances to electronics and computers. Hewlett-Packard, (NYSE:HPQ - News) Dell (NASDAQ:DELL - News), and other companies that rely heavily on contractors in China to supply notebook PCs, digital cameras, and handheld devices have formed an industry alliance to combat the abuses.

A compliance manager for a major multinational company who has overseen many factory audits says that the percentage of Chinese suppliers caught submitting false payroll records has risen from 46% to 75% in the past four years. This manager, who requested anonymity, estimates that only 20% of Chinese suppliers comply with wage rules, while just 5% obey hour limitations.

A RECENT VISIT by the compliance manager to a toy manufacturer in Shenzhen illustrated the crude ways that some suppliers conceal mistreatment. The manager recalls smelling strong paint fumes in the poorly ventilated and aging factory building. Young women employees were hunched over die-injection molds, using spray guns to paint storybook figurines. The compliance manager discovered a second workshop behind a locked door that a factory official initially refused to open but eventually did. In the back room, a young woman, who appeared to be under the legal working age of 16, tried to hide behind her co-workers on the production line, the visiting compliance manager says. The Chinese factory official admitted he was violating various work rules.

The situation in China is hard to keep in perspective. For all the shortcomings in factory conditions and oversight, even some critics say that workers' circumstances are improving overall. However compromised, pressure from multinationals has curbed some of the most egregious abuses by outside suppliers. Factories owned directly by such corporations as Motorola Inc (NYSE:MOT - News). and General Electric Co. (NYSE:GE - News) generally haven't been accused of mistreating their employees. And a booming economy and tightening labor supply in China have emboldened workers in some areas to demand better wages, frequently with success. Even so, many Chinese laborers, especially migrants from poor rural regions, still seek to work as many hours as possible, regardless of whether they are properly paid.

In this shifting, often murky environment, labor auditing has mushroomed into a multimillion-dollar industry. Internal corporate investigators and such global auditing agencies as Cal Safety Compliance, sgs of Switzerland, and Bureau Veritas of France operate a convoluted and uncoordinated oversight system. They follow varying corporate codes of conduct, resulting in some big Chinese factories having to post seven or eight different sets of rules. Some factories receive almost daily visits from inspection teams demanding payroll and production records, facility tours, and interviews with managers and workers. "McDonald's (NYSE:MCD - News), Walt Disney, (NYSE:DIS - News) and Wal-Mart are doing thousands of audits a year that are not harmonized," says van Heerden of Fair Labor. Among factory managers, "audit fatigue sets in," he says.

Some companies that thought they were making dramatic progress are discovering otherwise. A study commissioned by Nike last year covered 569 factories it uses in China and around the world that employ more than 300,000 workers. It found labor-code violations in every single one. Some factories "hide their work practices by maintaining two or even three sets of books," by coaching workers to "mislead auditors about their work hours, and by sending portions of production to unauthorized contractors where we have no oversight," the Nike study found.

THE FAIR LABOR ASSN. released its own study last November based on unannounced audits of 88 of its members' supplier factories in 18 countries. It found an average of 18 violations per factory, including excessive hours, underpayment of wages, health and safety problems, and worker harassment. The actual violation rate is probably higher, the fla said, because "factory personnel have become sophisticated in concealing noncompliance related to wages. They often hide original documents and show monitors falsified books."

While recently auditing an apparel manufacturer in Dongguan that supplies American importers, the corporate compliance manager says he discussed wage levels with the factory's Hong Kong-based owner. The 2,000 employees who operate sewing and stitching machines in the multi-story complex often put in overtime but earn an average of only $125 a month, an amount the owner grudgingly acknowledged to the compliance manager doesn't meet Chinese overtime-pay requirements or corporate labor codes. "These goals are a fantasy," the owner said. "Maybe in two or three decades we can meet them."

Pinning down what Chinese production workers are paid can be tricky. Based on Chinese government figures, the average manufacturing wage in China is 64 cents an hour, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics and demographer Judith Banister of Javelin Investments, a consulting firm in Beijing. That rate assumes a 40-hour week. In fact, 60- to 100-hour weeks are common in China, meaning that the real manufacturing wage is far less. Based on his own calculations from plant inspections, the veteran compliance manager estimates that employees at garment, electronics, and other export factories typically work more than 80 hours a week and make only 42 cents an hour.

BusinessWeek reviewed summaries of 28 recent industry audits of Chinese factories serving U.S. customers. A few factories supplying Black & Decker, (NYSE:BDK - News) Williams-Sonoma, and other well-known brands turned up clean, the summaries show. But these facilities were the exceptions.

At most of the factories, auditors discovered records apparently meant to falsify payrolls and time sheets. One typical report concerns Zhongshan Tat Shing Toys Factory, which employs 650 people in the southern city of Zhongshan. The factory's main customers are Wal-Mart and Target. (NYSE:TGT - News) When an American-sponsored inspection team showed up this spring, factory managers produced time sheets showing each worker put in eight hours a day, Monday through Friday, and was paid double the local minimum wage of 43 cents per hour for eight hours on Saturday, according to an audit report.

But when auditors interviewed workers in one section, some said that they were paid less than the minimum wage and that most of them were obliged to work an extra three to five hours a day, without overtime pay, the report shows. Most toiled an entire month without a day off. Workers told auditors that the factory had a different set of records showing actual overtime hours, the report says. Factory officials claimed that some of the papers had been destroyed by fire.

Wal-Mart's Wyatt doesn't dispute the discrepancies but stresses that the company is getting more aggressive overall in its monitoring. Wal-Mart says it does more audits than any other company--13,600 reviews of 7,200 factories last year alone--and permanently banned 141 factories in 2005 as a result of serious infractions, such as using child labor. In a written statement, Target doesn't respond to the allegations but says that it "takes very seriously" the fair treatment of factory workers. It adds that it "is committed to taking corrective action--up to and including termination of the relationship for vendors" that violate local labor law or Target's code of conduct. The Zhongshan factory didn't respond to repeated requests for comment.

An audit late last year of Young Sun Lighting Co., a maker of lamps for Home Depot, (NYSE:HD - News) Sears (NASDAQ:SHLD - News), and other retailers, highlighted similar inconsistencies. Every employee was on the job five days a week from 8 a.m. to 5:30 p.m., with a lunch break and no overtime hours, according to interviews with managers, as well as time sheets and payroll records provided by the 300-worker factory in Dongguan, an industrial city in Guangdong Province. But other records auditors found at the site and elsewhere--backed up by auditor interviews with workers--revealed that laborers worked an extra three to five hours a day with only one or two days a month off during peak production periods. Workers said they received overtime pay, but the "auditor strongly felt that these workers were coached," the audit report states.

Young Sun denies ever violating the rules set by its Western customers. In written answers to questions, the lighting manufacturer says that it doesn't coach employees on how to respond to auditors and that "at present, there are no" workers who are putting in three to five extra hours a day and getting only one or two days off each month. Young Sun says that it follows all local Chinese overtime rules.

Home Depot doesn't contest the inconsistencies in the audit reports about Young Sun and three other factories in China. "There is no perfect factory, I can guarantee you," a company spokeswoman says. Instead of cutting off wayward suppliers, Home Depot says that it works with factories on corrective actions. If the retailer becomes aware of severe offenses, such as the use of child labor, it terminates the supplier. A Sears spokesman declined to comment.

Coaching of workers and midlevel managers to mislead auditors is widespread, the auditing reports and BusinessWeek interviews show. A document obtained last year during an inspection at one Chinese fabric export factory in the southern city of Guangzhou instructed administrators to take these actions when faced with a surprise audit: "First notify underage trainees, underage full-time workers, and workers without identification to leave the manufacturing workshop through the back door. Order them not to loiter near the dormitory area. Secondly, immediately order the receptionist to gather all relevant documents and papers." Other pointers include instructing all workers to put on necessary protective equipment such as earplugs and face masks.

SOME U.S. RETAILERS SAY this evidence isn't representative and that their auditing efforts are working. BusinessWeek asked J.C. Penney Co. (NYSE:JCP - News) about audit reports included among those the magazine reviewed that appear to show falsification of records to hide overtime and pay violations at two factories serving the large retailer. Penney spokeswoman Darcie M. Brossart says the company immediately investigated the factories, and its "auditors observed no evidence of any legal compliance issues."

In any case, the two factories are too small to be seen as typical, Penney executives argue. The chain has been consolidating its China supply base and says that 80% of its imports now come from factories with several thousand workers apiece, which are managed by large Hong Kong trading companies that employ their own auditors. Quality inspectors for Penney and other buyers are at their supplier sites constantly, so overtime violations are hard to hide, Brossart says.

Chinese factory officials say, however, that just because infractions are difficult to discern doesn't mean they're not occurring. "It's a challenge for us to meet these codes of conduct," says Ron Chang, the Taiwanese general manager of Nike supplier Shoetown Footwear Co., which employs 15,000 workers in Qingyuan, Guangdong. Given the fierce competition in China for foreign production work, "we can't ask Nike to increase our price," he says, so "how can we afford to pay the higher salary?" By reducing profit margins from 30% to 5% over the past 18 years, Shoetown has managed to stay in business and obey Nike's rules, he says.

But squeezing margins doesn't solve the larger social issue. Chang says he regularly loses skilled employees to rival factories that break the rules because many workers are eager to put in longer hours than he offers, regardless of whether they get paid overtime rates. Ultimately, the economics of global outsourcing may trump any system of oversight that Western companies attempt. And these harsh economic realities could make it exceedingly difficult to achieve both the low prices and the humane working conditions that U.S. consumers have been promised.
 
Wonder why Wal Mart is so worried about Chinese workers, they (Wal Mart) are constantly being charged for forcing employees to work unpaid overtime, and it is well known, they don't pay any benefits to most employees.
 
"(These standards generally incorporate the official minimum wage, which is set by local or provincial governments and ranges from $45 to $101 a month.)"
"(Based on Chinese government figures, the average manufacturing wage in China is 64 cents an hour,)"..."(and other export factories typically work more than 80 hours a week and make only 42 cents an hour.)"

Thats a very interesting thread. A few things that I don't like are the "official minimum wage" and the "typical wage", both, so low as to be of inhumane standards for most countries population for survival. Yet the global outsoursing economy deem this human suffering acceptable in in the name of earnings per share and other profits! Where's it going to end? China, Wally, Dopet, and Tardet could care less what they do to their neighbors, thats been proven in court already. When they say they're looking into infractions of labor laws the artical mentions IMO their FOS, just killing time. Business as usual, full steam ahead!
If America doesn't change it's outsoursing ways and keep a little home inginuity for the rainy days that are sure to come, I fear we'll implode from within.
 
Never forget we're doing business with Communists. What can one expect?
Need a little tolerate such "barbarisms",primitive accumulation of capital? (chinglish).

Actually the 'real communists' will not tolerate such exploiting things.
Man, Wal-mart made them the poor Chinese workers.Wal-mart makes ten times profit than the factory does!
Who is prime criminal, every factory owner supplys to America? We sourcing agent in China canbe also?
capitalism like Wal-mart any good????
Now, the whole story, all sinners.

China Sourcing Report and Sourcing Service-China Business Services
Manufacturing in China/ China Outsourcing/Business Partners Matching/Marketing in China
 
Tektra, you realize that this report pretty much proves wrong all of your statements about China in the last few months?

"....estimates that only 20% of Chinese suppliers comply with wage rules, while just 5% obey hour limitations."
"the official minimum wage, which is set by local or provincial governments and ranges from $45 to $101 a month."
Minimum wage is $45 a month, and the factories are STILL cheating on their audits??

Here are some quotes from other stories on China:

"World Health Organization report on air quality in 272 cities worldwide concluded that seven of the world's 10 most polluted cities were in China."

"According to the People's Republic of China's own evaluation, two-thirds of the 338 cities for which air-quality data are available are considered polluted--two-thirds of them moderately or severely so. Respiratory and heart diseases related to air pollution are the leading cause of death in China. Acid rain falls on 30% of the country."

"Almost all of the nation's rivers are considered polluted to some degree, and half of the population lacks access to clean water. Ninety percent of urban water bodies are severely polluted."

"If China's air pollution seems like a problem just for that country, think again. The stuff spewing out in China has now been detected in the United States, and some suspect it's beginning to affect the U.S. climate."


WOW, China is such a progressive country! I think I'll send all of my work there tomorrow!
 
Joe788
Minimum wage is $45 a month
Can you hire a labour in China for $45? Anybody here can?Or ever saw with one's own eyes.
Indeed a lot of audit cheating in China, but if the factory can get market share in China, they wont supply to wal-marts.
In Beijing as I know the regulation of minimum wage per hour is 7-8 yuan (1$). My parents have a temp maid(works 2 hours per day)

Man, you got to think everyday there are 150 million migrant workers in major cities, if your country allow 15 millions Mexican tobe the labour in the states, your rate willbe 5.(much less comparing what could be bought something basic in China)

Pollutions, true, its partial of indirect costs but might be ignored for the time being.

Joe788, indeed the Beijing's pollution may affect U.S. climate now. (I can feel it in Beijing)


China Sourcing Report and Sourcing Service-China Business Services
Manufacturing in China/ China Outsourcing/Business Partners Matching/Marketing in China
 
Anybody stop to think that what you see going on in China today may be a view into the future of American tomorrow?

The economic truth is that wages in America have a long way to drop yet...and they will.

So will your financial obiligations follow suit? Your mortgage? Your old age support? Your medical costs?

The financial obiligations of your children when they enter the work force with "Chinese" style wages? Who will be paying for your SS payments?

TMT
 
I see whats going on in China today as a view into the past of America- in fact, its pretty darn similar to several periods in our past.
In 30 years or so, between the civil war and the first world war, we went from a lightly populated, po-dunk rural consumer nation to a heavily industrialised exporting world powerhouse.

Plenty of eggs were broken here to do that, believe me, including horrible work conditions, crummy wages, industrial accidents, pollution, crooked politicians, 7 day work weeks, and other things similar to China now.

Took us a good 50 years to swallow that particular meal- getting civilised, so to speak.

Wages, conditions, and expectations in China are going up.
They have learned a little from a few of our mistakes, and probably wont repeat all of them.

Wages in america have been pretty stagnant for 30 years or so, for most working people- since well before chinese imports were a significant factor.

A machinist or welder could make about the same hourly wage when I entered the work force, in 1972, as you can today- and I am talking dollars per hour, not inflation adjusted.

The structure of our economy, including the way corporations pay politicians to make laws, has much more to do with our wage, mortgage and social security situation than China does.
 
Who will be paying for your SS payments?

Nobody. Social Security is a legalized ponzi scheme. Originally designed to last only for three years (they picked ages according to an actuary table, leaving a person on average three years to collect) today's recipients collect for decades.

By the I retire SS will be insolvent. I'm more likely to be visited by Aliens than to ever collect an SS check, and if I do collect such a check it's more likely to be so eroded by inflation as to be a token payment.

Incidentally, I've read that not a few older Chinese workers were supported by the factories from where they retired. Once the factory closed they were on the street. The "Iron Rice Bowl" is breaking, except of course for Party members.

Gene
 
The structure of our economy, including the way corporations pay politicians to make laws, has much more to do with our wage, mortgage and social security situation than China does.

Even more so the propensity of the voting public to give itself gimmies and goodies.

The three largest expenses in the US Federal budget are Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. Each was opposed because of expected overruns.

During debates on Medicare and Medicaid some Republicans complained of "billions of dollars of expenses" in the future. They were laughed down by Democrats who insisted that cost saving and other austerity and mass buying measures would keep the costs down to under a billion US dollars per year.

I think I last read that Medicare and Medicaid each rival the US Defense budget.

Gene
 
One of the largest expenses in the Federal Budget is the Social Security program. On average each employed person in the US pays a 7 percent tax on their wages. Their employer pays 7 percent more for the cost of their labor.

Medicare/Medicaid extracts an additional one percent in total labor costs, split evenly between the worker and employer.

Self employed pay a fifteen percent pre-tax rakeoff to the Social Security Administration, on top of their income and other taxes.

This massive pile of money goes to Washington, where it is re-distributed to all sorts of folks. This money is not included in "discretionary spending" but is a separate "entitlement".

In addition, many Goverment employees draw a more lavish pension, such as Government workers, railroad workers, and Legislators.

Your tax dollars at play...

Gene
 
"Republicans complained of "billions of dollars of
expenses" in the future...."

So they started a war that nobody wanted,
that didn't help anthing, and cost four billion
dollars per month!

Gene, you need to get your head straight and
finally figure out that your tax and spend
enemies are not democrats. They're your own
party! They're spending money like drunken
sailors. They've turned their backs on fiscal
responsibility and make all of FDRs new deal
look like Ronnie Raygun's direst cost cutting.

Just IMAGINE a pile of money that amounts to
a billion dollars. Then have a democrat (say,
Nancy Pelosi or Chuck Shumer) come on the scene
and douse the pile of cash with kerosene and
light it on fire.

In doing that, they will be FOUR times more
fiscally conservative than your own idiotic
party. Those folks are burning that much
four times over EVERY MONTH.

You need to become a democrat gene. If only
for the sake of fiscal responsibility. This
is why the republicans got kicked out of the
house, and the senate. They can't stop spending
money.

Jim
 
Jim,

The Medical Industry in the US takes in 1.7 Trillion dollars a year ($1,700,000,000.00).

The Democrats would like to "nationalize" this entire industry, placing it under the same sort of folks who run the Veterans Administration, the Post Office and the IRS.

They have stated that if they run the show it will be more efficient and effective. One wonders how Fed-Ex and UPS can ever compete with the USPS if that were the case, huh?

The Democrats also wanted "National Child Care", "free" College Education for anyone who wants it, completely funding education from the Federal level. And so on...

They created the "Great Society" in the 1960s, giving us a $5 Trillion ($5,000,000,000.00) social experiment which has resulted in generations of Americans being born without fathers and without any hope of being able to compete in the workplace.

Then we have the expected payouts to Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid recipients which could total $67 Trillion ($67,000,000,000.00) over the next forty years.

The war in Iraq in terms of dollars and cents is small potatoes in comparison. The fact that we could probably agree that this war was a mistake does not imply that the above Democrat financial atrocities are therefore good, and that we need MORE of it.

Gene
 
Jim Rozen
quote" So they started a war that nobody wanted!

Hey Jim
Did you hear about 9-11 ?
Do you know people want to cut off YOUR head?
Do you know the President of Iran has sworn to destroy America?
Aparently not...according to your comment.
And jim...no one wants war..get off the soap box.
If you would read our Constitution, you will find what responsibilites the President has..
and protecting your butt, is the first one of them

I know you donot want these facts in your way jim, But they are Truths of our current situation
Rich
 
The difference is, the war in Iraq has incurred actual expenses.
Real money we borrowed from the Chinese.

All of these "democratic" plans you outline are still theoretical- none of them are law.

And, considering that in both houses, most of these things require not just simple 51% majority votes, but supermajority votes, it is highly unlikely many, or indeed any, of them will get passed into law the way you describe em.
 
"Did you hear about 9-11 ?"

Last time I checked it didn't happen in
wisconsin.

A bunch of it happened pretty near to where
I lived. The nuclear power plant nearby was
on the short list of targets.

Now can somebody please explain to me AGAIN
what Iraq had to do with that? Can anyone
explain why we invaded Iraq, when all the
folks who did this came from Saudi Arabia?

I don't think the president's job is keep my
butt safe. Seems like his *real* job is to
spend my money. BILLIONS of dollars of it
in fact. On a war that makes us *less*
secure, not more secure.

Can we win in Iraq? Kissenger says "no."

Is that war making things better? The repub.
committee says "no" it's making things worse.

Do the US citizens want this war? They vote
"no" and boot the republicans out of power who
want it.

Anyone who thinks that:

Invading Iraq was a good idea

We can win that war in Iraq

Fighting that war makes us safer here at home

Is frankly living in a dream world. Time to
wake up folks. The dream is coming to an end,
the bills are due, and nothing is working there.
It's getting worse. We're gonna have another
saigon in a bit.

Then we can have another republican getting
his picture taken with the new ruler like
the Shrubbie having a photo op with Ho Chi
Mihn. It will be yet another in a long
sad story of 'lose the war, win the peace in
the long run.'

In the meantime we can watch while the neocons
eat each other alive playing the 'blame game.'
If our soldiers weren't at risk fighting in
the neocon ar they they couldn't plan, couldn't execute, and could not possibly win, it would be funny. Instead it's a tragedy.

Jim
 
Gene,
No one is going debate the great society with you, they know it was a failure but if they admit to it then they must admit they have been
preaching a lie for 40 years.
One only has to look at the buffoon Ted Kennedy,
why would anyone keep an employee who for fifty years has failed to produce anything.
 
Man, what a toughie.

Them of you making 5 grand a month are saying the Chinese are eating our lunch because of their .45 per hour wage. "Ain't NOBODY could live on THAT!!"

LOTS of places live on WAY less, dollar wise, and live better than we do.
Nike, I think, was one, said the .18 per hour was the highest wage in , what, Thailand? That's in US dollars.

I think, and I keep saying so, the US dollar is not worth a farthing.
You can buy a pound of rice for 7 cents, there. A dollar, here.

A pound of beef there, 50 cents, here, 7 dollars.

Your Iskar inserts, what, 5 bucks here, what's the price outside the US? Do you even know?

Social Security? The Repubs would like to tell you it is unsustainable. If they keep raping the system with Tresury Bonds to keep total borrowing down, of course it wil have problems.

The Repubs have been very good at borrowing and spending. ALL of them. Dems have a reputation of taxing and spending.

Would you not rather collect the tax and spend it than borrow, and keep tax rates low, and spend with wild abandon?

Rich Carlstedt,

The Congress alone has the power to declare war. NOT the President.

And, this present war will be GW's legacy, and is already the Rep's downfall. He simply screwed up.

Not that he has never done so before. How you can call him a "good" president, I do not know.

9/11? I thought that ALL of them maniacs were Saudi citizens. And, all the Saudi citizens, as well as all the bin Laden visitors to the US were the only people allowed to fly in the days after 9/11, when the rest of the country was forbidden to do so, fly ANYWHERE!

Gene,
Your post above does not rate a reply, you are simply an asshole.

To get into the "trillions" of dollars for medicare and SS and Medicaid, and anything else is simply asinine. You say "40 years", so you mean 1 trillion or so per yer, and escalating with inflation here. BFD.

The US spends 14% of its GDP on medical care, with 40% of the people unisured. ALL the other countries that have "socialized" medicine spend about 14% of their GDP on medical care, with 100% of their populace covered.

Some of you guys are so goddamn*d ridiculous, I don't know if you even HAVE a job, or just lurk on these sites to promote Republican ****. Mebbe the Reps PAY you to keep shoveling us ****?

Cheers,

George
 
George,
Do you have the ability conduct a discussion without calling someone a name? You are the one who comes off as riduclous. Grow up or shut up.
 








 
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